No Power, Internet, or Cell Phone Service

[Mossman]

We've been experiencing a power outage since 8am this morning in the San Fernando Valley.

Also, Spectrum has gone down, so even in areas where there's power, they have no internet. I'm not sure if their problem is directly related to the power outage. I'm looking at a Spectrum tech right now messing with a box on a pole a few blocks away from my house.

Also, nobody has an any cell phone service. Sometimes you get a signal, but most of the time you don't. I happened to find a spot in my neighborhood where I can get a web page to load, but I might lose it by the time I finish this message.

Its been 12 hours, and still, nobody knows what's going on, and I haven't been able to find any news, or even an announcement from the city, or LA Water and Power about it. That's odd. Of course, the traffic lights are out and traffic is CHAOTIC at the major intersections, and there are NO officers directing traffic.

Its also strange that cell service is affected. It feels like it's being throttled, or something. A power outage should have no effect on cell service.

I'm in an informational void and I don't like it! If anyone has any idea what's going on, please let me know!

[mighty_duck]

This says it's been out since this morning, and crews are working on it.
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2021/06 ... ka-reseda/
Incidentally, I grew up in Reseda, so small world

[Mossman]

Incidentally, I grew up in Reseda, so small world

You must have had some long days.

I'm in the other town mentioned in that article. I pass through Reseda every day on my way to and from work in Van Nuys.

Water and Power were about 5.5 hours off in their prediction. The power just came back on a few minutes ago, and my phone works again. Still don't know why it affected cell phone service, or Spectrum cable.

[nomadh]

It's a warmup for the coming collapse of Calizuela .

[mickey]

You think cell sites run without electricity?
And cell companies are too cheap to install backup generators.
Same is true for cable TV/ISP companies.

[dabbler]

Hmmm, I hope this isn't a test of a utility hack.

And like @Mickey said, you take out the power at the source and cell goes too.

[Mossman]

You think cell sites run without electricity?
And cell companies are too cheap to install backup generators.
Same is true for cable TV/ISP companies.

Yes, I know cell towers require electricity, but they should have back-up generators. I would imagine that there's some kind of FCC regulation that requires them to have back-up generators (it's not like this is the electrical grid, or something ). I've never experienced a power outage where my cell phone also didn't work. Cell phones are no longer a luxury. They're our primary method of communication now. I can't imagine they don't have protocols in place to harden the network against power outages and other catastrophes.

[mickey]

You think cell sites run without electricity?
And cell companies are too cheap to install backup generators.
Same is true for cable TV/ISP companies.

Yes, I know cell towers require electricity, but they should have back-up generators. I would imagine that there's some kind of FCC regulation that requires them to have back-up generators (it's not like this is the electrical grid, or something ). I've never experienced a power outage where my cell phone also didn't work. Cell phones are no longer a luxury. They're our primary method of communication now. I can't imagine they don't have protocols in place to harden the network against power outages and other catastrophes.

Nope. Most have the ability for techs to bring portable generators and connect to the outside of the building.
But in some areas people will steal them.
The sites run off batteries.

When I retired, in Nashville we had 12.5kw Kobota generators on trailers.
They had 250 gallon diesel tanks on them.

[tlarson58]

Old school...

[Mossman]

Nope. Most have the ability for techs to bring portable generators and connect to the outside of the building.
But in some areas people will steal them.
The sites run off batteries.

When I retired, in Nashville we had 12.5kw Kobota generators on trailers.
They had 250 gallon diesel tanks on them.

That reminds me, I don't think they properly located and fixed the problem. Last night, after the power got restored, I was taking my evening walk around the neighborhood, and when I turned down one street, heard a generator running and wondered why anyone would be using a generator now that the power had come back on?

Well, when I got to the end of the street, I saw a transformer with a running generator plugged into it. I wondered if that's what I would find at all the transformers in the area, but I was too tired to wander around looking for another one.

[Mossman]

Old school...

Screenshot 2021-06-03 082719.jpg

I have one of those.

[uwmcscott]

So I'll ask the obvious question -if you have no power, internet or cell service, how are you posting here?

Remember that cell networks are tied to terrestrial internet, so it's very possible to have cell service but no data or compromised data. While not exactly the same technically, think of the situation where your home wifi network is still up and running fine to connect the devices together, but your residential broadband connection is not working - so you still get wifi but no internet.

And regarding backup/redundancy - that would/should/could be nice but you'd be surprised at how little of that is out there in many industries.

[mickey]

So I'll ask the obvious question -if you have no power, internet or cell service, how are you posting here?

Remember that cell networks are tied to terrestrial internet, so it's very possible to have cell service but no data or compromised data. While not exactly the same technically, think of the situation where your home wifi network is still up and running fine to connect the devices together, but your residential broadband connection is not working - so you still get wifi but no internet.

And regarding backup/redundancy - that would/should/could be nice but you'd be surprised at how little of that is out there in many industries.

Well, sorta, but not quite. AT&T's cell network connects (with a few exceptions) to AT&T's fiber network which also runs on batteries that are backed up by automatic emergency generators.
Thus if an AT&T cell site is up and working its internet connection is also up and running. I cannot speak to any other cell provider's network. But as an example in 2018 when hurricane Michael
came thru here (cat 5 storm) AT&T lost a cell site or two for a week or two but otherwise not a hiccup. Verizon's cell network was completely down in the FL panhandle & south AL for over a month after Michael.
Unfortunately, much of the local government in the Florida Panhandle & south Alabama were contracted with Verizon.

The only time AT&T lost major portions of their fiber network, there was a software update that was scheduled for midnight Saturday night on "X" date at all points & it didn't work.
That was before I retired.

[uwmcscott]

So I'll ask the obvious question -if you have no power, internet or cell service, how are you posting here?

Remember that cell networks are tied to terrestrial internet, so it's very possible to have cell service but no data or compromised data. While not exactly the same technically, think of the situation where your home wifi network is still up and running fine to connect the devices together, but your residential broadband connection is not working - so you still get wifi but no internet.

And regarding backup/redundancy - that would/should/could be nice but you'd be surprised at how little of that is out there in many industries.

Well, sorta, but not quite. AT&T's cell network connects (with a few exceptions) to AT&T's fiber network which also runs on batteries that are backed up by automatic emergency generators.
Thus if an AT&T cell site is up and working its internet connection is also up and running. I cannot speak to any other cell provider's network.

There is still always a single point of failure somewhere along the line, no matter how robust a single network might- and the failure might not always be physical or power related. DNS and routing issues or improper failover/overloading of the devices managing the traffic can be just as detrimental as a fiber cut or a power outage.

[sabasgr68]

Is your nightmare still happening there, Ed @Mossman ?

[Mossman]

So I'll ask the obvious question -if you have no power, internet or cell service, how are you posting here?

Remember that cell networks are tied to terrestrial internet, so it's very possible to have cell service but no data or compromised data. While not exactly the same technically, think of the situation where your home wifi network is still up and running fine to connect the devices together, but your residential broadband connection is not working - so you still get wifi but no internet.

And regarding backup/redundancy - that would/should/could be nice but you'd be surprised at how little of that is out there in many industries.

I found a spot a few blocks from my house where I could pick up a strong enough signal to connect to the internet. And I could neither make calls, nor get an internet connection. Service wasn't completely down, the signal just wasn't strong enough in most places. Inside my apartment, my phone was completely dead. No phone service, no internet at all. I'd get a couple of bars outside, which is usually good enough for calls and internet, but I needed to get at least four bars to connect. And when I found a strong signal, it was very localized. If I took a step or two away from that spot, I'd lose the connection.

I'm not aware of the technicalities, I just know that this is the first time I've lost use of my cell phone during a power outage. I always assumed that keeping the cellular network up would be a safety concern, since that's the only means of communication for most people these days.

[Mossman]

Is your nightmare still happening there, Ed @Mossman ?

No, the power was restored at about 9:30 last night. It did make me think of you go through on a regular basis in Venezuela, though.

[mickey]

There is still always a single point of failure somewhere along the line, no matter how robust a single network might- and the failure might not always be physical or power related. DNS and routing issues or improper failover/overloading of the devices managing the traffic can be just as detrimental as a fiber cut or a power outage.

Well, there are engineers getting paid good money to insure that such single points of failure that can bring down the whole network do not exist.
Of course, not all engineers are created equal!

[RockYoWorld]

You think cell sites run without electricity?
And cell companies are too cheap ti install backup generators.
Same is true for cable TV/ISP companies.

Yes, I know cell towers require electricity, but they should have back-up generators. I would imagine that there's some kind of FCC regulation that requires them to have back-up generators (it's not like this is the electrical grid, or something ). I've never experienced a power outage where my cell phone also didn't work. Cell phones are no longer a luxury. They're our primary method of communication now. I can't imagine they don't have protocols in place to harden the network against power outages and other catastrophes.

Nope. Most have the ability for techs to bring portable generators and connect to the outside of the building.
But in some areas people will steal them.
The sites run off batteries.

When I retired, in Nashville we had 12.5kw Kobota generators on trailers.
They had 250 gallon diesel tanks on them.

I've had talks with telecom representatives about lithium battery systems for their cell towers to replace the lead acids they use today. From the size of batteries they were looking for, I can't imagine they'd be at full power. That, or be able to be full power for long. The batteries could almost match the output of those Kobota generators you mentioned, but you'd only get 30 minutes of runtime.

[andrewsrea]

Glad to hear you are full power now!

Can you imagine what life would be like if we all had fully electric cars? I am thinking every house will begin to have a back-up generator of some kind, when the US is 'fully electric'.

[mickey]

Glad to hear you are full power now!

Can you imagine what life would be like if we all had fully electric cars? I am thinking every house will begin to have a back-up generator of some kind, when the US is 'fully electric'.

Yep, I'm thinking our petroleum consumption is apt to increase to power generators large enough to recharge an electric car in less than 24 hours.

[andrewsrea]

Yep, I'm thinking our petroleum consumption is apt to increase to power generators large enough to recharge an electric car in less than 24 hours.

Lol. Electric cars and the green new deal are getting a lot of talk these days and you hear a lot of people saying things like "we need to do this by 2025." Has anyone done a study on our current power grid's ability to support this?

I mean, California imports electricity from other states and needs to perform rolling black-outs during fire season because the wires get too hot.

[mickey]

I don't think such studies have been completed as yet. But I do know there are plenty of people seriously concerned about whether the grid is up to a 100% switch to electric cars.
From what I have heard, the Tesla charging stations (the ones for you to use while traveling) have each charge point wired for 220volt 200 amp service. How long does it take to
go from <10% to >90% charge on one of those? Do much driving and your electric bill is going to resemble using resistive strip heat in zero weather.

[mickey]

I've had talks with telecom representatives about lithium battery systems for their cell towers to replace the lead acids they use today. From the size of batteries they were looking for, I can't imagine they'd be at full power. That, or be able to be full power for long. The batteries could almost match the output of those Kobota generators you mentioned, but you'd only get 30 minutes of runtime.

Well, I'd bet that 30 minutes of battery backup would handle >90% of power outages without the customers being aware,
except maybe in California (or other 3rd world countries.)

[uwmcscott]

Well, there are engineers getting paid good money to insure that such single points of failure that can bring down the whole network do not exist.
Of course, not all engineers are created equal!

If we let the engineers have carte blanche to design the systems, cellphones would cost $500 a month just for service to cover all the infrastructure costs And if they let the money guys make the decisions ( which happens more often than not ), you end up with situations like this email thread describes. I've seen some carrier class racks of equipment co-located in faculties I recently worked at with literally no power backup at all. I also recently started working in the healthcare IS field, where you'd think that it would be Area-51 like security 24/7, but some of the stuff you see out there makes you just scratch your head