Epic Fake/Real? Gibson Thread Going On Over At TGP

[toomanycats]

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index ... 9.2246449/

Long story short (the thread on The Gear Page is approaching 50 pages), a member over there posted pics of what questionably appeared to be . . . was being offered for sale as . . . and had been authenticated by Gruhn Guitars as . . . a Gibson R9 . . . with a commensurate price tag. He was asking for advice from TGP members as to whether it was real or not.

Gibson themselves got involved. An entire thread was started at My LesPaul over this TGP thread. Sweetwater may or may not be implicated. Lot's of craziness and entertainment has ensued, and no small amount of education is to be had if you've got the time to read what amounts to a small novella and are interested in such things.

I've gotten a lot of entertainment out of this thread in the last week and thought I'd share it with you folks.

[uwmcscott]

So what was the eventual conclusion? After a few page it already starts devolving into typical forum type banter, and by the end it's got nothing to do with the OP. Or can you at least tell us what page the answer is on?

[mickey]

email George Gruhn and ask him if he authenticated it.
If he did, you can set your atomic clock by it.

Looks like it has those cheapassed caps that only scammers use.

[RockYoWorld]

Thanks for the share! That does look like a very interesting conundrum with many parties getting involved.

The only way I'd buy a Gibson is used but the amount of counterfeits out there like this really makes me shy away from it. I've seen experienced people online list so many things to look for. I'll just stick to my Korean guitars that do great for me

[toomanycats]

So what was the eventual conclusion? After a few page it already starts devolving into typical forum type banter, and by the end it's got nothing to do with the OP. Or can you at least tell us what page the answer is on?

I've read the entire thread until page 48. Can't say there's a particular page with the "big reveal," as the entire thing has been like an unfolding mystery.

Gruhn did sign a paper saying it appears to be a Gibson R9. Some questioned whether the actual Gruhn paper might be forged, and there was much debate about that. The Gruhn paper does appear to be real and Gruhn has apparently been contacted about the matter.

Gibson saw pictures of the guitar and said it is not a Gibson.

Some TGP member speculated that it was a real Gibson, maybe a Tribute, reworked by a place such as Historic Makeovers to appear as a R9.

Some speculated that it is a one off copy of a particular real 59, which would account for the idiosyncrasy of a crooked "n" and weird placement of the "Gibson" logo.

There is general agreement at the moment that it is not a real Gibson, though they still haven't identified the particular builder.

Early on in the thread there was a lot of disagreement about whether the top was attractive or ugly. I personally like the top and think it resembles Pearly Gates.

The big questions remaining are, "How did Gruhn get this wrong?" . . . and, "Who actually did build this thing which seemed to fool so many people?"

[Chocol8]

Short answer, most people looking at it and Gibson agree that it wasn’t built by Gibson. I am not sure the seller even identified it as a Gibson R9, only Gruhn did.

There are a number of issues with it that don’t match the 2011 R9 Gruhn said it was. The 2016 date codes on the pots, logo, serial number font, cap stain, and routing for example.

The owner of the shop was out of the shop for months due to COVID fears (really? You think you can run a business like that?) when the guitar came in on consignment, and a former employee sent pictures to Gruhn for a photo appraisal. That former employee now works for Sweetwater which otherwise had nothing to do with this.

Gruhn really screwed up big time. The OP immediately questioned the authenticity based on the serial number of 9 1959 which seems a little too perfect for a 1959 reissue. How a so called expert charging money for their work could miss that and all the other issues is a bit disturbing.

[uwmcscott]

Man, I took another look and to me it appears that it's mostly a bunch of people who have way too much time on their hands arguing about a transaction that never even happened.

I do agree though that if the Gruhn letter is not a forgery, someone at Gruhn totally blew it on that one - it's got Chibson written all over it.

[mozz]

Seeing it in person is 100% better than any pictures on the internet. I'm not going to read the article. With the quality mistakes Gibson makes, and the proliferation of chinese fakes, you are still at a 50-50 chance of it being real.

[Gergo]

I I don't have time to read through the whole thread. Too much rambling. My two cents worth is that the Gibson logo placement looks wrong. And that the headstock itself just does not look quite right.
As for it being verified by George Gruhn, I would like to hear from him personally. If someone can counterfeit an expensive Gibson, then I suppose they are capable of forging an authentication.

[toomanycats]

As for it being verified by George Gruhn, I would like to hear from him personally.

What many are worried about is how this could affect the collectors market, both for vintage instruments as well as for high end reproductions like Gibson Historics, Fender Custom Shop and so on. The value of many of those instruments is underwritten, at least in part, due to their having been verified as being authentically what they are by Gruhn. If Gruhn has verified that a fake like this is real, the worry is that it could lead to a crisis in confidence in the broader high end guitar market.

Some people have lots of capital tied up in high dollar guitars, often strictly as investments. Scott Groove used to make videos in a room hung to the rafters with high dollar investment guitars, and I would be surprised if he didn't have a dossier filled with Gruhn appraisals to underwrite their value. What if suddenly all those Gruhn appraisals are perceived as worthless, or at least highly dubitable?

The issue has also been raised regarding whether insurance companies will become reticent to insure such instruments if appraisals are revealed to be so erroneous.

For these reasons some are saying, as you are, that Gruhn needs to address this publicly. In effect, it could become a bigger issue than just one Les Paul forgery conjectured about on an internet forum. It's about preserving Gruhn's own reputation and stabilizing the collectors market.

[mozz]

Read through a bunch of pages. Come to the conclusion is wasn't sold in the US as Gibson said so the serial number should be legit. As for the body, headstock shape, logo, top, i say it's real. They are all not exactly perfect and often hand shaped so there are differences. I didn't see the r9 stamp inside but they said it's there. Pots could have been updated in 2016 since 2001 or 1999 manufacter. Pot code dating is one of the simplest ways to date a guitar and if it was a fake i know i would at least have the correct dated pots. You would not go through all the trouble of making a fake and then simply putting the wrong pots in. As for the top, i like it that way, bookmatched grain is boring after a while.

[Gergo]

As for it being verified by George Gruhn, I would like to hear from him personally.

What many are worried about is how this could affect the collectors market, both for vintage instruments as well as for high end reproductions like Gibson Historics, Fender Custom Shop and so on. The value of many of those instruments is underwritten, at least in part, due to their having been verified as being authentically what they are by Gruhn. If Gruhn has verified that a fake like this is is real, the worry is that this could lead to a crisis in confidence in the broader high end guitar market.

Some people have lots of capital tied up in high dollar guitars, often strictly as investments. Scott Groove used to make videos in a room hung to the rafters with high dollar investment guitars, and I would be surprised if he didn't have a dossier filled with Gruhn appraisals to underwrite their value. What if suddenly all those Gruhn appraisals are perceived as worthless, or at least highly dubitable?

The issue has also been raised regarding whether insurance companies will become reticent to insure such instruments if appraisals are revealed to be so erroneous.

For these reasons some are saying, as you are, that Gruhn needs to address this publicly. In effect, it could become a bigger issue than just one Les Paul forgery conjectured about on an internet forum. It's about preserving Gruhn's own reputation and stabilizing the collectors market.

I totally agree. He needs to speak up on it.

Personally, I am having a hard time believing that the authentication is real. I looked at the headstock, and in about 1 second I thought that something may not be right, and my knowledge is like that of a toddler's compared to someone like George Gruhn. Maybe I am wrong, but my guess is that the authentication is not real, and Gruhn needs to start putting some anti-counterfeiting measures into the forms that he signs, like govt's do with currency.

[uwmcscott]

As for it being verified by George Gruhn, I would like to hear from him personally.

What many are worried about is how this could affect the collectors market, both for vintage instruments as well as for high end reproductions like Gibson Historics, Fender Custom Shop and so on. The value of many of those instruments is underwritten, at least in part, due to their having been verified as being authentically what they are by Gruhn. If Gruhn has verified that a fake like this is is real, the worry is that this could lead to a crisis in confidence in the broader high end guitar market.

Some people have lots of capital tied up in high dollar guitars, often strictly as investments. Scott Groove used to make videos in a room hung to the rafters with high dollar investment guitars, and I would be surprised if he didn't have a dossier filled with Gruhn appraisals to underwrite their value. What if suddenly all those Gruhn appraisals are perceived as worthless, or at least highly dubitable?

The issue has also been raised regarding whether insurance companies will become reticent to insure such instruments if appraisals are revealed to be so erroneous.

For these reasons some are saying, as you are, that Gruhn needs to address this publicly. In effect, it could become a bigger issue than just one Les Paul forgery conjectured about on an internet forum. It's about preserving Gruhn's own reputation and stabilizing the collectors market.

Or OOTH, it was 2 threads on a somewhat obscure internet forum. The other ( and more likely ) possibility is that in a few weeks no one even remembers or cares about it. I'd actually be all for the collector market taking a punch in the gut, for the most part the "collecting" of vintage guitars has raised prices to unobtainable status for most people.

[Chocol8]

There are already more “certified” real 1959 bursts than Gibson actually made.

If you can figure out all the details to spot a fake, you can fake all of those details. It’s been done.


The guitar in question though has several details that don’t match anything Gibson ever made. It is likely too good to be a Chibson, but it is definitely counterfeit.

[Chocol8]

Read through a bunch of pages. Come to the conclusion is wasn't sold in the US as Gibson said so the serial number should be legit. As for the body, headstock shape, logo, top, i say it's real. They are all not exactly perfect and often hand shaped so there are differences. I didn't see the r9 stamp inside but they said it's there. Pots could have been updated in 2016 since 2001 or 1999 manufacter. Pot code dating is one of the simplest ways to date a guitar and if it was a fake i know i would at least have the correct dated pots. You would not go through all the trouble of making a fake and then simply putting the wrong pots in. As for the top, i like it that way, bookmatched grain is boring after a while.

Yeah, no.

Gibson said it wasn’t built by them. There are too many little things that say they are correct.

Despite a post earlier in the thread saying there was a stamp, there was never an R9 stamp inside as shown in later pictures. That was a miscommunication. Gruhn should have caught that! It seems like whoever made the fake guitar wasn’t intending it to fool someone trying to authenticate it. Certainly not as an R9. It would have been easy to match the pot date codes, use a less obviously fake serial number and put the R9 stamp in. Gruhn is the one who called it an R9, not the counterfeiter as far as we know.

[mozz]

Since you know so much you should be in the business of authenticating Gibsons. Gibson said it was not sold here, i didn't read where they said they didn't make it. As i said, how can you tell from pictures with out actually being there. You seem to have a bug up your ass in everything i post.

[Chocol8]

Since you know so much you should be in the business of authenticating Gibsons. Gibson said it was not sold here, i didn't read where they said they didn't make it. As i said, how can you tell from pictures with out actually being there. You seem to have a bug up your ass in everything i post.

Just because you didn’t read it doesn’t mean it wasn’t posted in the thread multiple times. Read the thread. On first contact, Gibson said the serial number wasn’t sold in the US. They also asked for more pictures. On review of the pictures they were sent, they said it was definitely not one of their guitars. No one involved, including the shop, Gibson, and Gruhn, still believes the guitar was built by Gibson.

[nomadh]

This is some of the reason I've only bought retail gibsons recently. I know I dont have the detail eye. I've been buying some silver recently and after seeing some fake coins got me not only worried about buying some but how I could possibly convince someone else they were legit if I needed to sell. There are magnets and looking for copper at the edge and weighing. But if the diff is just 29 vs 31 grams that's too close to call. Or sell. And the copper middle? I looked at 100 quarters and 20% could have been considered pure silver by looking with a lighted magnifier. And that's with legit currency. The chinese are actively trying to forge on even $30 coins. I cant imagine trying to buy gold.
Fake parts end up in cars from their own subs. Critical Airplane parts end in the official supply chain.
I wonder when we start buying chibsons as gibsons new from gc directly. All it takes is one crooked or inattentive worker.
Maybe gibson kinda likes the idea of fakes. Could really helps drive new official sales