This Must Be The Greatest CRATE Amp Ever Made! CRATE VC3112

[toomanycats]

This morning I scored this pristine 90s Crate VC3112 for $159. When I saw it in the pawn shop and realized it was a made in USA all tube amp I knew it was a steal even if it just worked. It was built like a tank, similar to the Peavey combos of the same era. After a quick test to make sure it turned on and functioned I bought it.

So I get home and fire this thing up. I let it warm up a while before I flipped the standby to "on" and noticed that it throws out a lot of heat, which is not unusual for class A amps. Good Lord! This amp is shockingly good! There are two channels, each of which is independently connected to the spring reverb tank. Channel one is an amazing Fender blackface type tone, with glassy cleans, spank, sparkle, and tons of headroom. Channel two is pure British goodness . . . thick, crunchy, with full chords and singing leads just flying out of this thing. I'm flabbergasted by how good this amp sounds.

Curious as to which tubes it had I opened it up and verified that they're all Groove Tubes, four 12AX7s and four EL84s.

The speaker is supposed to be a Greenback type clone made by Eminence. It sounds spongy and warm with super smooth break up.

I've gotta be honest, I'm no Peavey hater by any means, and I've never been ashamed of my Classic 30, but this 30 watt Crate blows my C30 out of the water! VC stands for "Vintage Club," and though this amp looks similar to the later Crate V Series, it's apparently a different amp (as in superior).

Do you guys know about this incredible amp? Does this thing have a reputation as a sleeper?

[toomanycats]

[peskypesky]

incredible deal!

[bleys21]

How do you keep managing to score these things? Is it just where you live? Everything used out here in California is marked up past what you can just buy it for from any online retailer, or higher than it originally sold for. I don't even look anymore, as there's no point. :-/

Maybe you can send some of your bargain hunting mojo out west?

[Milkman]

That’s how it is here too... low to midrange crap at 80% retail price.

Nice score TMC!

[toomanycats]

How do you keep managing to score these things? Is it just where you live?

idk, maybe karma or something? A reward for saving cats?

But seriously, I think it partly has to do with the area. Here's my advice on pawn shops, for what it's worth:

*The best ones are where the owner isn't on the premises. The kid I dealt with today was on his fourth day on the job. Odds are he won't be there in a month. This works in your favor.

*If you encounter prostitutes in the parking lot, or see a woman walking in wearing a robe and slippers, that's a good sign. You're in the right neighborhood. Your best hunting will always be on the "wrong side of the tracks."

*If everybody in the store is primarily focused on guns and jewelry that means you've got the pick of the guitars and gear. It may be difficult for us to imagine, but there are people who don't give a damn about guitars and gear; and to the extent that they do, it is only as a means of making a little profit on a quick turnaround. They have zero emotional attachment to these things we so treasure, lust after, and value as tools of artistic expression.

*It is never good when a guitar player is an employee. They cherry pick anything good that comes in for themselves and their buddies. If the owner is a guitar player then just forget about it, you'll never get anything at a reasonable price! That being said, I did have mercy on this one owner (a non guitar player who gives me good deals) and instructed him in how to quickly identify a Chibson. Poor guy got burned really bad on a 335 Chibson thinking it was the real deal.

*You've got to stop regularly and have a look because anything good that comes in the door will not stick around long. Even then, it's all about the timing. What really haunts me are the things I've missed entirely, gear that came in and went right back out without me even knowing about it.

[mozz]

I have the 15 watt version of that, 2 EL84's. I think it's 10" speaker though. I never really put it through it's paces, i need to rotate some stuff.

[toomanycats]

I have the 15 watt version of that, 2 EL84's. I think it's 10" speaker though. I never really put it through it's paces, i need to rotate some stuff.

Is it this one? Looks like it has the same covering as the Supro Blues King that came out just a couple years ago. From what I've read the V Series was available exclusively through Musician's Friend, or maybe that was just the Palamino. Crate stuff can be confusing, so may differences over the years, some USA, some imports, some junk, some good stuff.

[Gear_Junky]

I love a great deal! And I love the 2 of mine - Palomino V16 (like the V15 above, just in summer uniform) and the V32. I think I like the 2-channel 30-watt model better - cleans are lovely.

[golem]

Some of the Crate amps were made by knowledgeable people. Obeid Khan worked there. You probably haven't heard of him, but you may have heard of Magnatone amps or Reason (he designed amps for Magnatone and designed and built for Reason). I'm not surprised to hear that some are sleepers.

[peskypesky]

How do you keep managing to score these things? Is it just where you live? Everything used out here in California is marked up past what you can just buy it for from any online retailer, or higher than it originally sold for. I don't even look anymore, as there's no point. :-/

Same here in San Antonio. Back in the day, pawn shops had great deals. Now, they ask more for a beat-up used guitar than a new one costs.

[mozz]

3 amps stacked on top of this. Fender champ, champ clone, fender pro jr. Crate was on the bottom. Mine is a VC2112R. I didn't think it had the 12" eminence speaker but it does. Big ass magnet. Reverb. I'm going to have to revisit this and run stereo for a while.

I remember when i bought this, the guy sold it as is, as it didn't work. One of the preamp tubes was not even lighting up. That itself is weird as tubes never usually fail for the filament being open. New tube and it fired right up.

[toomanycats]

Some of the Crate amps were made by knowledgeable people. Obeid Khan worked there. You probably haven't heard of him, but you may have heard of Magnatone amps or Reason (he designed amps for Magnatone and designed and built for Reason). I'm not surprised to hear that some are sleepers.

I spent the insomnia episode of last night reading up on Mr. Kahn on his website. Looks like those are some durable little tube heads he makes. Amazing stuff. I've seen pics of Billy Gibbons playing Crate, and obviously Billy is a major endorser of Magnatone. I'm thinking that Obeid Khan is the common link and that Billy must really like his designs.

Regarding my VC3112, I've read a lot about how hot they can run, and how over time that can warp the pc board and mess with the traces. As a preemptive measure I'm going to clip a small fan on the back panel to circulate air when I gig the amp. This Crate is probably 25 years old, give or take, and given it's pristine original condition I'm guessing it wasn't gigged. It just doesn't have the look of a piece of gear that's been used as a workhorse. I'd hate to be the one that melts it down after all this time. It could have spent it's entire life in somebody's bedroom and never before been pushed for three hours. I'm quite sure it hadn't even been fired up in quite a while because after turning it on and warming it up for the first time it gave off the same smell the heating elements of my electric furnace do on the first cold Fall day. It's the distinctive odor of a thick coat of burning dust.

[tonebender]

I picked up a Palomino when they came out because they do have an amazing gain channel. I took it back because there was too much delay when switching channels with a footswitch. it through the timing off when clicking it on for a fill. It was a serious delay more than a micro second. Have you tried a the footswitch to change channels?

Congrats and happy new amp day. Crate has some great sounding amps.

[toomanycats]

I picked up a Palomino when they came out because they do have an amazing gain channel. I took it back because there was too much delay when switching channels with a footswitch. it through the timing off when clicking it on for a fill. It was a serious delay more than a micro second. Have you tried a the footswitch to change channels?

Congrats and happy new amp day. Crate has some great sounding amps.

It didn't come with a footswitch but I have a couple from other amps that might work. I'll test it and report back. I have read that these amps are prone to channel switching problems when using the button on the amp due to a bad optical switch. The solution is usually said to be . . . get this . . . using a footswitch.

[golem]

Some of the Crate amps were made by knowledgeable people. Obeid Khan worked there. You probably haven't heard of him, but you may have heard of Magnatone amps or Reason (he designed amps for Magnatone and designed and built for Reason). I'm not surprised to hear that some are sleepers.

I spent the insomnia episode of last night reading up on Mr. Kahn on his website. Looks like those are some durable little tube heads he makes. Amazing stuff. I've seen pics of Billy Gibbons playing Crate, and obviously Billy is a major endorser of Magnatone. I'm thinking that Obeid Khan is the common link and that Billy must really like his designs.

Regarding my VC3112, I've read a lot about how hot they can run, and how over time that can warp the pc board and mess with the traces. As a preemptive measure I'm going to clip a small fan on the back panel to circulate air when I gig the amp. This Crate is probably 25 years old, give or take, and given it's pristine original condition I'm guessing it wasn't gigged. It just doesn't have the look of a piece of gear that's been used as a workhorse. I'd hate to be the one that melts it down after all this time. It could have spent it's entire life in somebody's bedroom and never before been pushed for three hours. I'm quite sure it hadn't even been fired up in quite a while because after turning it on and warming it up for the first time it gave off the same smell the heating elements of my electric furnace do on the first cold Fall day. It's the distinctive odor of a thick coat of burning dust.

There's the rub. Just like Rivera's designs for Fender (the pots in particular), Crate made these amps cheaply. So the issue isn't really with the design bu the execution. The fan might not be a bad idea. I've tried the Pak Amp in personal at Killer Vintage. It's a decent amp but I didn't find it amazing at the volumes I could play in the shop with lots of people around. But, it might be that it's amazing at louder volumes that I couldn't test it out at.

[nomadh]

I have the crate v3112 built in vietnam. Got it on a killer closeout deal. Not A TMC deal but good. And I love mine. It replaced my very good Peavey classic 50 410 as my gig amp. Its great at gig vol and a lot easier to move than that 410. Its a bit of a off the side well known secret. I've had sound guys that were excited to mic it up even. I too got a fan for it to just blow from the bottom up. Mine can get too hot to touch and the fan did the trick. Recently I've been lazy and not plugging in the fan. Now its developed an "issue". A few times now its had radical vol shifts during the warm up time before a gig. A little scary for a stage amp. But its been great. I think there is a problem with the foot switching time. I'm not using that precise but sometimes I notice it.
I look forward to hearing what you sound like with it.
And as far as the builder goes, He Rocks!

[tlarson58]

Great post and congrats on yet another steal. I love amps, stories about amps, amp demos, amp comparisons, etc.

10 pictures and no cat content. Just sayin'.

[golem]

I'm a bit naive when it comes to amps. I know a bit about what the difference between class A is. I had a Mesa Express that I recall could switch between A and AB (but this also changed the wattage rating of the amp). I honestly liked both modes. I was curious why you seem to prefer class A.

[toomanycats]

I'm a bit naive when it comes to amps. I know a bit about what the difference between class A is. I had a Mesa Express that I recall could switch between A and AB (but this also changed the wattage rating of the amp). I honestly liked both modes. I was curious why you seem to prefer class A.

I'm not a tech, so I can't explain class A from that perspective. @mozz, @andrewsrea, and others can do that though. But the best way I can describe how playing a class A amp feels for me is raw, sensitive, present, primitive, direct, unforgiving, and highly expressive. Put it this way, class A is to amps what p90s is to pickups.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike AB amps. I've played some incredible Plexis, JCM-800s, Laneys, amongst others. I'm just really digging class A at this point in my evolution as a player.

[mozz]

I was under the understanding that a push pull class A tube amp, was only in class A for part of the cycle, it switches over to class AB for most of it. That was a description of a VOX, since they call their amps class A and somebody was wondering how they get away with that for marketing purposes. All single output tube amps, such as a champ or most all low wattage amps are class A, as a single tube can not operate in a class AB situation by itself. Now you also have tube amps with 2 output tubes in parallel (instead of push pull), they are class A. Push pull is cleaner but also has more balls.

EDIT: Class A, higher distortion, also more second harmonics, which are more pleasing to the ear.

To get better wattage out of class A you need huge tubes and a huge single ended output transformer. A 6L6 might get you 9-10 watts if lucky. A huge transmitter tube or a KT88/6550 may get 15w. I do have a hot rodded Champ clone here i was working on years ago, trying a EL34 and some really high voltages, still could not get more than 10 watts.

[andrewsrea]

^ What @mozz said and thanks, @golem for the mention!

I was an authorized Crate repairman until the company was sold in the 2000's, played and fixed many of their models - this one included. It is a class AB cathode-biased and behaves like Mozz said. It's output circuit after the driver tube, is identical to a Vox AC30 and a close cousin to the Peavey Classic 30 and many others which use fixed-bias at lower (colder) idle bias values.

DO NOT waste your time with a fan. Tubes like inductive cooling vs. forced-air. The latter causes more variability and with it, temp fluctuations and the mechanical swelling and shrinking that goes with it. Thus being counterproductive to your goal of longer tube life. Crate actually copied the better of the Vox venting designs and that is about as good as it gets.

FYI: you can actually fry an egg on an output tube of a vintage Vox AC30. They are idle biased at 93% to 99% max plate wattage (extremely hot), sound great and quickly eat output tubes (I think Brian May's tech changes his every 3 or 4 shows). If you want the tone, you pay the price. The Crate model you have is no worse than a vintage AC30.

The good: the clean channel and phase-inverter / driver are almost exactly Blackface Fender. The gain channel is similar to a Soldano with a Marshall tone stack (which I personally liked over a Classic 30, even though that amp is a fav of mine). As stated, you have a Vox output section with a better output transformer (OT). The vintage Vox OT were not built hifi and did not have a lot of iron and therefore, rolled off the deep low ends. This OT has a lot more iron and can thump if you want. The side effect is, the OT does not saturate as fast as the Vox and is more transient / less-compressed. The Eminence is a Create labeled of one of their better British-style speaker (Tonker?) and sounds great.

The moot: it is vacuum tube-on-PCB design aren't as robust as socket-in-chassis designs. However, I never encountered a related repair. It will give you problems if you do a lot of tweaking or repairs (the circuit tracings will lift). If you don't futz with it, it will last.

The bad: I typically repaired the pots which due to the physical location, would get thoroughly abused if you gigged a lot. A center strike would blow the resistive 'circle' into a million pieces. Some had plastic shafts and would easily sheer. The other bad I remember was an inconsistency with the reverb tanks (come sounded like a toy and some were good) and they weighed a ton, as they were built with thick particle board.

FYI: the footswitch delay that @tonebender mentioned is typically the electrolytic capacitors drying out in the +10 / -10 power supply: C34 & C35 (1000uF / 35v) and C38 & C39 (10uF / 16v). Modern caps have a smaller footprint, so I recommend 22uF /25v for the C38 & C39. The switching is via VTLSC3 Led + photoresistor, which are normally slower than relays. The up-side is, this design is silent switching. However, when there isn't max power stored in the caps, the Led's turn on slow and since the photoresistor is naturally slow, it becomes audible.

You got a whole lotta amp for a small price! Enjoy and PM me if you ever need help with it.

[toomanycats]

^ What @mozz said and thanks, @golem for the mention!

I was an authorized Crate repairman until the company was sold in the 2000's, played and fixed many of their models - this one included. It is a class AB cathode-biased and behaves like Mozz said. It's output circuit after the driver tube, is identical to a Vox AC30 and a close cousin to the Peavey Classic 30 and many others which use fixed-bias at lower (colder) idle bias values.

DO NOT waste your time with a fan. Tubes like inductive cooling vs. forced-air. The latter causes more variability and with it, temp fluctuations and the mechanical swelling and shrinking that goes with it. Thus being counterproductive to your goal of longer tube life. Crate actually copied the better of the Vox venting designs and that is about as good as it gets.

FYI: you can actually fry an egg on an output tube of a vintage Vox AC30. They are idle biased at 93% to 99% max plate wattage (extremely hot), sound great and quickly eat output tubes (I think Brian May's tech changes his every 3 or 4 shows). If you want the tone, you pay the price. The Crate model you have is no worse than a vintage AC30.

The good: the clean channel and phase-inverter / driver are almost exactly Blackface Fender. The gain channel is similar to a Soldano with a Marshall tone stack (which I personally liked over a Classic 30, even though that amp is a fav of mine). As stated, you have a Vox output section with a better output transformer (OT). The vintage Vox OT were not built hifi and did not have a lot of iron and therefore, rolled off the deep low ends. This OT has a lot more iron and can thump if you want. The side effect is, the OT does not saturate as fast as the Vox and is more transient / less-compressed. The Eminence is a Create labeled of one of their better British-style speaker (Tonker?) and sounds great.

The moot: it is vacuum tube-on-PCB design aren't as robust as socket-in-chassis designs. However, I never encountered a related repair. It will give you problems if you do a lot of tweaking or repairs (the circuit tracings will lift). If you don't futz with it, it will last.

The bad: I typically repaired the pots which due to the physical location, would get thoroughly abused if you gigged a lot. A center strike would blow the resistive 'circle' into a million pieces. Some had plastic shafts and would easily sheer. The other bad I remember was an inconsistency with the reverb tanks (come sounded like a toy and some were good) and they weighed a ton, as they were built with thick particle board.

FYI: the footswitch delay that @tonebender mentioned is typically the electrolytic capacitors drying out in the +10 / -10 power supply: C34 & C35 (1000uF / 35v) and C38 & C39 (10uF / 16v). Modern caps have a smaller footprint, so I recommend 22uF /25v for the C38 & C39. The switching is via VTLSC3 Led + photoresistor, which are normally slower than relays. The up-side is, this design is silent switching. However, when there isn't max power stored in the caps, the Led's turn on slow and since the photoresistor is naturally slow, it becomes audible.

You got a whole lotta amp for a small price! Enjoy and PM me if you ever need help with it.

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your wealth of experience with these Crates. It feels good to know that right now we're building up the new AGF's repository of knowledge, and that in the future others may benefit from this thread as well.

You're definitely right about it being heavy. It's bulky too, being significantly bigger than a Peavey C30. One thing you mentioned that I've also seen asserted online is that the cabinet is constructed of particle board. From what I can see mine looks to be made mostly of 3/4" ply with the top being particle board as per the pic below.

I took a closer look at the pics of the pc board on this amp and I could swear that a couple of those electrolytic capacitors looked bulged on the top. Maybe you can spot them and tell me what you think. It wouldn't be a surprise if they'd reached the end of their service life after a quarter century.

I'll heed your advice about not using that fan. Let me ask you this though. The other day while discussing this Crate with a music store owner he said that he's occasionally dealt with amps that run really hot by using some kind of tube socket extension cord. It keeps the tubes away from the rest of the components. He said that he also saw Peter Frampton's amps modified like that. You ever see anything like that?

I sure wish you lived within driving distance of me because I'd be bringing all my repair and maintenance work to you.

[mozz]

https://tubedepot.com/products/9-pin-socket-saver
9 pin tube socket saver. They use these on tube testers so you don't wear the socket out. I guess you could put one under each tube but then you would have to extend the bracket which hold the tubes secure. Those groove tubes are decent tubes and go for about $50 pair so probably much better than a el-cheapo el84.

As andrewsrea said, the pots would be the weak point. They are a odd size, hard to get now, and there really isn't a substitute for them. I do remember working on one for a friend and it ran hot, which i think does shorten the life of the pots. I remember having to blast De-oxit in there a few times to get rid of the scratchyness, or most of it anyway.

Going to have to disagree about the fan. Many transmitter tubes are forced cooled. My Traynor has a factory fan and without it i'm sure the tubes would melt. You can't get 85 clean watts out of a pair of tubes without moving the air away. The old trick was to use a fan and run it at half voltage, 24v fan running on 12v, or 240v fan running on 120v. I would think a small usb fan run off a 5v usb wall wart would be good enough. All you want to do it slightly move air out of the cabinet, it would be enough to drop the temps. There would be less temp fluctuation with a steady stream of air. Running the fan on full voltage will make noise and that would be the biggest complaint. There are well known Marshall JTM 30 or 60? that you have to mod them with a fan otherwise the heat will destroy other components. It was a bad design that now has a bad reputation.

[nomadh]

I'm a bit naive when it comes to amps. I know a bit about what the difference between class A is. I had a Mesa Express that I recall could switch between A and AB (but this also changed the wattage rating of the amp). I honestly liked both modes. I was curious why you seem to prefer class A.

You know why class A sounds so good. It sluffs off all the crappy sounding electrons as heat leaving only the juiciest tone electrons to power the speaker.
It takes about 120 watts of power just to get 30 watts of tone power.
Class AB uses some of the ugly power.
Then theres solid state, ugh
And the most efficient is class D. It uses 100%. Its super efficient and is the audio equivalent of biting down on steel wool.