Opinion: The death of the amp

[doc-knapp]

I'm predicting the imminent death of the tube amp. We've really reached the point where amp sims have gotten so good, and the prices keep dropping to the point where it doesn't make financial sense to buy one expensive amp when something in a small box does so much more for so much less.
Technology marches on.....

[golem]

Ironically, I'd rather own tube amps right now. @andrewsrea can fix them and lives nearby. In any of the digital stuff I have breaks, I don't even think there's a place I can turn it into to get it fixed. My Quilter is Solid State, but I suspect the small size may also make it have the same issue. Granted, Pat Quilter has a great reputation for making good stuff that doesn't break. I also think that, long term, most of my digital stuff will loose value when a new model comes out our it loses popularity. That I have digital stuff at all is thanks to finding reasonably good deals on stuff.

[tobijohn]

I'm predicting the imminent death of the tube amp. We've really reached the point where amp sims have gotten so good, and the prices keep dropping to the point where it doesn't make financial sense to buy one expensive amp when something in a small box does so much more for so much less.
Technology marches on.....

Is the Amplifire still your primary?

[BatUtilityBelt]

Ah good, an old fashioned religious debate. Just kidding, but it could become that. I for one don't agree for a few reasons. Considering how I use my amps, that should be surprising.

I spend a lot more time with modeled amps than my real tube amps, purely for convenience, but I can always tell the difference. Maybe someone listening to recordings of each cannot hear the differences, so cannot particularly appreciate the differences except... If a player feels the difference and appreciates it, that may well come out in the performance.

Second, I've been dealing with gear for almost 40 years, and some of the eras there were heavily electronically based. So I know first-hand what it is like for a piece of gear I like to go out of support and not be user-serviceable. Every firmware and software based solution is vulnerable to this potential future. You can pick up a 60 year old Les Paul and plug it into a 60 year old Vox amp and it will either work or have the potential to be fixed and then work. I can't say the same for several of my old keyboards, any of the software I used to run, and some of the effects I used to rely upon. Software and firmware beyond support become vaporware, and that is not true of tube amps. Tubes and certain other components will become more expensive over time, but I doubt they will ever become fully obsolete because of the history they helped create.

[Mossman]

As much as I love the MG-30, I think I'll always want to have a tube amp around... There's enough room in my heart for both new and old tech. After all, I still like to dick around with 8-bit computers.

[mickey]

Let us not forget that tube amps are some folks religion.
I thought tubes would be extinct by the year 2000, but they are still here
even tho they make no sense whatever except in extremely limited applications like high power RF transmitters.
I doubt that I will live to see a solid state microwave oven.

[thepezident]

Positive Grid Spark 40 is the way

[tonebender]

As long as I am alive there will be at least a few tube amps in use. I went to watch JT Curtis the other night and both his guitar players were using some type of board with a millions lights and buttons. They sounded great but what I could hear so distinctly was the compression. I had paid no attention to the stage when I came in and they started playing within a few minutes of our arrival. My ear told me right away they were using processors instead of amps. I looked over and sure enough, no amps except bass. I think there are advantages to it. They had their systems set up to emulate pretty closely the tone of the original song they were covering so they sounded more like the real thing on each song rather than "their" sound of the songs they were covering, (if that makes sense). The crowd on the wholesale level does not know or can discern the difference and probably like it better because of it. It has to be easier not having to tote an amp. The sound man probably appreciates not running all the mics and cables with all the blue tooth technology. Still I am an analog man.

[toomanycats]

Ask yourself this:

Why are there people who still want large cubic inch, naturally aspirated muscle cars in the year 2021?

If you understand that, then you know the appeal of a pushed tube amp with a big hunk of iron output transformer driving some greenbacks.

Ironically, I find myself turning to a drummer to argue the general point best:

[LancerTheGreat]

I just started using plug-ins and digital stuff, and it's really good and everything.
But it's still not as good as my real amps and cabs. There's just a level of compression and super minor artifacts that just can't be eliminated, and the simple fact digital just doesn't move air the same way a real amp does, sure theyll thump, bump and vibrate a bit, but pants arent flapping neither are heart beats getting thrown of rhythm in front of a set of monitors.
So I'd say as long as a few people actually love themselves, real amps should be safe.
Just because emulation is good, doesn't mean the real hardware loses it's place.


Edit:
Besides, keyboards have been solid for a good while, but people still buy real pianos. I had a Swiss army knife that I threw away because my knives, and tools do a far better job, I just got a multitool at work, but I'm not throwing my scissors, knives, pliers or screwdrivers away.
I'd rather be/have a master of one thing than a jack of all that comes up short.

[glasshand]

I don't think amps are going away any time soon. I mean, tubes haven't even gone away although solid state technology is pretty mature at this point.

[sabasgr68]

Well, this is a good discussion subject. I´d also dare to say that everyone has a fair share of righteousness in their points.

I know NOTHING about tube amps, I´ve only had one amp in my life, the Solid State Fender Mustang I, so I don´t have any solid background behind me, I´m totally aware of that. But in most discussions about this topic, I´ve read and heard that tube amps have their own thing, and that even though emulators have evolved to great levels of realism, they still cannot match them one-on-one. So people will always have a place in their heart for tubes.

What I think is that, eventually, emulators will become so good that musicians - pro musicians specially IMHO -, will have the opportunity to chose which one to take to this or that venue, depending on security, the place, etc., and still sound good for the public. But again, I´m not an expert nor a pro musician.

In the end, I second what John @toomanycats said: a good old roaring V8 engine is still hard to beat. New cars are great and dependable and everything, but a ride in an old, well tuned ´68 Mustang... you know, it has ITS thing.

But, as a funny and contradictory final note, you can count me as a fan of SS amps and modelers, but a fan of old V8 engines! LOL

[RockYoWorld]

As a fan of Fractal units and very much a modeler guy myself, I would NOT say that it's the death of the amp coming any time soon. I can see the appeal of real amps, but I'll stick to my high-end modelers.

That said, I've been playing the role of live sound engineer more than I have been a guitarist lately. From that point of view, I wish more people would run direct. I wish more guitarists would understand that even if they had the best tone in the world coming out of the cab on stage, it doesn't mean that their audience hears that well and it absolutely doesn't mean that it makes the band as a whole sound better. More often than not, amps on stage just create problems for sound guys since it limits what we can do to control the mix, especially in a relatively small venue.

The main venue I mix at is a pretty small room and the owner has gotten complaints from patrons of high volume so us sound engineers have been directed to try to keep the volume down. Between drummers hitting too hard and guitarists cranking their amps too much, the result is not being able to hear anything from the PA if we bring the volume down. All you end up hearing is the reflections of the monitors that have to be blaring so they can hear over said amps and drummers as well.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: having a low stage volume can make a big difference in having the end result of a great overall mix for your audience. Modelers and IEM systems help a lot with that.

But no, amps aren't dead.

[aullucci]

So, I am right in the process of attempting to split the difference between tubes and modelers. I got a Revv D20 delivered yesterday (stock photo, I got the black one).

https://revvamplification.com/wp-conten ... imized.jpg

It's a 20 watt, 2 6V6 tube head, switchable down to 4 watts. It's single channel with a gain boost (this is supposed to be a clean, pedal friendly amp; the G20 is its dirtier sibling). It also has a Two Notes Torpedo built in, so you can kill the internal speaker and play through headphones or through DI to an interface into a DAW. If you play through phones or DI, you use the rotary switch on the front to cycle through IR cabs. You can save 6 on the amp (up to 128 on MIDI; it also has MIDI, but this is worthless to me as I don't know how to use MIDI). You aren't locked into Two Notes cabs either, you can load any IR through the USB port on the amp. There's also a fun Pre-Post switch on the front. If you're running through the phones or DI, you can kill the actual 6v6 power section of the amp, and insert virtual 6L6 or EL34 tubes in their place.

I got it yesterday and didn't even have a chance to take it out of the box last night. So I don't know if any of this actually works, but on paper, it is the perfect solution for me. I can run it through my 1x12 cab and play it like a regular tube amp, I can run it through headphones for silent practice, or I can run it into a DAW and record/play along (through headphones or studio monitors). If you gig (I don't), you can run the DI to FOH and then keep a cab on stage to monitor. I'm very psyched.

Long story short - I don't think tube amps are dead. But modern tech can make them a helluva lot more useful (for me at least).

[uwmcscott]

I doubt tubes will ever go away for good, heck there are still people building tube based home audio amps. When companies like Friedman can sell $2-4K tube amps as fast as they can build them, that tells you something about the market.

Certainly a lot of professional musicians are finding ways to improve their craft through the versatility of solid state/digital but even some of them still have giant rooms of old school gear that they hoard away. And for the average joe, closet/bedroom rockstar guy like me ( and a good portion of the market ) a tube amp is really not "needed" - but I still have one. And some people have rooms full of them

We are a fickle bunch us guitar guys - some of us pay extra to buy new guitars that look old, and also amps that have old-school tech for lots of reasons - some legitimate and some just because.

[Milkman]

@aullucci , I’ve been trying to resist one of those myself…. The pull is strong.

[tonebender]

.....I've said it before and I'll say it again: having a low stage volume can make a big difference in having the end result of a great overall mix for your audience...... Modelers and IEM systems help a lot with that. But no, amps aren't dead.

Like you I ended up running sound for many events and what I learned was what we had been doing wrong as a band. The stage was too loud. We started using low wattage tube amps and mic'ing up even in smallish venues so we could keep the stage level as low as possible. Our mix improved and instead of getting complaints from the establishment about volume, we got compliments and offers to run sound. What always happens is one guy cannot hear his vocals or amp or whatever so he turns it up. Often what really needs to happen is everything else needs to come down. Essentially the amp should only be a monitor on stage. Let the PA do the heavy lifting.

[Chocol8]

I am pretty sure new tube amps outsold modelers by a good margin in 2021, and tube amps have very long lives vs electronics which die or become outdated much quicker. So, there will continue to be more tube amps in circulation than modelers for quite a while.

It doesn’t necessarily make economic sense, but that’s what people are buying.

FWIW, I bought my first modeler two decades ago, and continue to use modeling as well as tube amps. I think a large portion of guitarists who own and use the top modelers, also own and use tube amps. So, I really do not think of it as an either or thing, or a one replacing the other. I think of it as new and different tools for different situations.

[aullucci]

@aullucci , I’ve been trying to resist one of those myself…. The pull is strong.

They went on sale for Black Friday and then Sweetwater knocked a decent amount off the sale price and there were bonus free IRs involved and I just finally caved. Will report back when I've had a chance to play with it...

[RockYoWorld]

What always happens is one guy cannot hear his vocals or amp or whatever so he turns it up. Often what really needs to happen is everything else needs to come down. Essentially the amp should only be a monitor on stage. Let the PA do the heavy lifting.

Completely agree. We mic every amp even if we end up not having it in the mix because it's too loud. We get best results having amps on side of stage angled up at the guitarists. Loud amps still contribute to room noise (mud) and causing singers to ask for more monitor volume, which can cause feedback issues. The stage monitors are hung from above, which keeps the stage clean, but isn't as good with feedback when considering the cardioid pattern of dynamic mics (the monitors are coming in at ~90deg instead of ~180deg). That's where IEMs help, even if you have amps on stage.

[dabbler]

I am pretty sure new tube amps outsold modelers by a good margin in 2021, and tube amps have very long lives vs electronics which die or become outdated much quicker. ...

I don't have numbers, but I would have guessed that more solid state amps were sold, if only because, since they are cheaper, more people (kids) can afford them.

And on amp life, yeah solid state stuff gets made obsolete by the newest version but the only component I've ever had to replace on a SS amp was a pot. Tubes have a finite life, solid state is much more resilient.

I don't need a tube amp, though I have a few, but I only take my SS amp out these days, cause it's lighter.

Different strokes for different folks, but I would bet that most amateurs like me (and there are more of us than pros) will buy more solid state than tube. But I'm not saying tubes are dead, just not the majority of the market piece-wise.

[RockYoWorld]

I am pretty sure new tube amps outsold modelers by a good margin in 2021, and tube amps have very long lives vs electronics which die or become outdated much quicker. So, there will continue to be more tube amps in circulation than modelers for quite a while.

The product life cycle of electronics in modelers is definitely a factor. We're still in the part of the technology adoption curve where the products get measurable better every few years. For example, my Axe FX II still sounds great and I still have it (don't use it much), but my Axe FX III blows it out of the water. The Axe FX II still has value, but it decreased with the Axe FX III on the market. You don't see that as much with tube amps.

For me, that depreciation of value isn't a huge factor because buying a new high-end modeler every ~5 years is still cheaper than if I kept a growing collection of high-end tube amps. The amount of value I get out of my Axe FX with a $2,500 buy in is phenomenal when you consider all the amp tones and effects I use at every gig, let alone all the other options I don't use. I only have 3 main "sounds" but each one has 2 amps in stereo. So that's 6 amps that average out to be around the price of an Axe FX III a piece. And that doesn't factor in the cab!

I do think that we'll eventually see more of a plateau in advancement of the products per year. The keyboardist in my band and I talk about this often. Keyboards and digital synths are years ahead of guitar modelers in this technology curve. The main keyboard he uses was made in the early 90's before I was born and has awesome tones since he knows how to program it. He has 2 of them and steals parts from his rehearsal one for his gig unit as they wear out. He keeps looking into new ones, but the improvements aren't quite worth the price for him yet. The biggest difference isn't in the sound, but how it's programmed.

But, once again, I understand the appeal of having a real tube amp, and that's not going away.

[mozz]

"For me, that depreciation of value isn't a huge factor because buying a new high-end modeler every ~5 years is still cheaper than if I kept a growing collection of high-end tube amps."

As a repair guy for most of my life, a lot of solid state stuff made in the 70's-maybe 80's is repairable. After that, nope. Newer than that, nope. Also that 70's-80's stuff is getting harder to find parts for so eventually it will not be fixable. As you said, once a new model modeler comes out, the price drops on the older one. I doubt there are any places that will fix your AXE FX II if it broke, maybe the factory but they will stop that and rather have you buy a new model. Maybe a few repair guys could fix certain power supply problems but beyond that i doubt they are repairable. I see that as a very time limited original purchase because who is gonna want those "OLD" sounds from a few years ago. Unless those axe fx II are going for $100 used I wouldn't see any point in buying them these days.

I have a few Roland, Ibanez, DOD, and a few other rack mount "guitar processors" from the 80's, i bought used cheap $25 un-working condition, fixed them and now are worth $50-100, but as a hobbyist that's what i like doing. Anything newer i would pass on trying to repair. As for tube amps, older the better to repair and bring back to life. I could teach anyone how to fix a old amp and keep it running as long as you knew how to solder and use a meter.

But if you got the money to buy $2000 effects every few years and the depreciation doesn't bother you, that's good too. The only thing (i try) to live with that depreciates are my body and cars.

[rrobbone]

The only thing amp sims can't do is move air - but you can still plug in to anything that does. Even so, I don't think tube amps will die anytime soon. Having hawked guitar related products to players for a few years I can say this - as a group we are extremely resistant to change. Amps will still sell for many reasons, but as long as the popular opinion is that "AmPs ArE BeDdEr" they're not going away. It's along the same lines as tonewood and finish options having some major mojo effect on an electric guitar's sound. We are very addicted to a potent mix of tradition and hyperbole - again, as a group.

"It is new, therefore it must be shunned."

I'm a convert, though originally it was by necessity. I have three multi-effects pedals and two VST amp/effects suites, and they all have their own sound and characteristics. If you offered me the choice between a really nice tube amp and the latest Roland noise box... I'd snap that Roland up every time.

[doc-knapp]

I'm predicting the imminent death of the tube amp. We've really reached the point where amp sims have gotten so good, and the prices keep dropping to the point where it doesn't make financial sense to buy one expensive amp when something in a small box does so much more for so much less.
Technology marches on.....

Is the Amplifire still your primary?

Yeah, I keep wanting to upgrade, but I'm still happy with the tones from the Amplifire.