What is the SX of firearms?

nomadh · Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:57 pm

With everything going on the last few weeks and we had riots break out just a few miles from us my brother is finally considering getting a gun. We are in cA so that's a massively limiting factor. I would have nominated my keltek P11 as the SX of handguns. It was functional but unpleasant to use out of the box. But an evening stripping it and sanding and a few filings and its a damn reliable if unusual trigger pull gun. Well the keltek is off the CA gun mfg bribery list so we need something else now.

I see the hi point C9 9mm is available in ca and turners has had them for <$189. I saw 1 pretty bad review but lots of others counteracting it. I suggest a 9mm but him being a beginner maybe a revolver is better. They also have the Rock Island Armory M206 6RD 38Spl 2". $250

also there is the FMK 9C1G2 9MM 4" $359
Charter Arms Undercover .38Special 2" $369
Taurus 856CH Stainless 38 Special +P 2" Barrel $379

I'm thinking for controllability, ammo cost and ammo availability the 38 or 9mm. I'm open to other reasoning and love to hear it. I also wonder about the idea of going to a shotgun. Nice to clear a room but it does seem a shame to destroy everything in the room just to keep a scumbag from getting it. I hear just the sound of a shotgun cocking pretty much can be all it takes sometimes but then again can't we just get an app for that?
Whats the opinion of a 22 mag with a 4+ in barrel? Will that have some reasonable stopping power? How does 22 mag kick compared to 38 or 9mm?
Also wondering about the Phoenix arms hp22 for me as a plinking gun. I have been amassing 22 ammo but have never got a chance to buy the gun.
And you can try to argue a needed higher price but my brother is pretty cheap. And that's coming from me.

uwmcscott · Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:08 pm

The Taurus G2C comes to mind. I shot one a few months ago and it has good capacity, a manual safety and I think they are about $200 ish? For carry it’s a good size too but it kicked a lot more than my SigP365 which is a hefty little package.

I think having a gun you feel comfortable with and can shoot accurately is more important than caliber or “stopping power”. That term is a lot like “tone” when it comes to guitars.

fatjack · Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:25 pm

WEll bang for the uTaurus or Ruger. If you're comfortable with a .380 Rugers little pocket gun comes to mind. I,ve always been fond of Taurus' revolvers based on classic designs and just work well for the money. Ruger did have a composite 45 some years back not up to Sig standards had both, but it was a nice cheap 45 that kicked.

fatjack · Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:38 pm

Just my opinion but I'd avoid any .38 with a 2 inch barrel there's a reason the FBI requires a 3" minimum on service weapons

mozz · Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:07 pm

Yeah, a 38 with 2" barrel is gonna be a little nasty never minding a short sight radius. My wife has the taurus 85 i bought her close to 20 years ago, price has gone up. They were smith and wesson clones. Any revolver is gonna be pretty reliable, if it's not it has to be really junky. Only thing is a lot of 38 ammo for sale is the plus P variety and a lot of lower priced guns are not speced for the hotter ammo. In a emergency situation were you are forced to use the gun, the stopping power of a plus P over a regular round is pretty irrelevant, so i would not hesitate to use regular 38 power.

Other thing is 38 ammo i see for sale is some stupid hardball 130 grain fmj. Avoid. Use 158 grain lead. Kick difference is irrelevant. I would see if they make a 4" or 6" barrel, more intimidating and not as easy to carry concealed. A lot of people will carry without getting the proper permits.

I would check out the rock island, if it's not sloppy or shoddy i would trust it as they are a well known name.
I would also never recommend a semi auto (of any caliber) to anyone who isn't familiar with guns or who "used to shoot my fathers gun 30 years ago". The chances of a accident are greatly increased. A double action revolver has a much more dedicated intentional follow through trigger pull. Don't even show him how to pull the hammer back, just a double action pull.

Sorry about the CA laws, we have people here in PA who open carry in Lowes, Home depot etc. You get used to it and it doesn't scare me.

DonM · Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:24 pm

I’ve had a Taurus Millennium 9mm for almost 20 years and have fired it a lot and really like it. Don’t even know if they still make them. I got a Bersa Thunder 380 a couple of years ago. Similar to James Band’s Walther PPK.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ound-57777

nomadh · Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:17 pm

DonM wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:24 pm I’ve had a Taurus Millennium 9mm for almost 20 years and have fired it a lot and really like it. Don’t even know if they still make them. I got a Bersa Thunder 380 a couple of years ago. Similar to James Band’s Walther PPK.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ound-57777

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From what I used to know I thought of Taurus as the squier of guns. Not the expensive name but solid value but also if you dig deeper you can find that sx.
I'm hoping.

glad to hear Taurus is still a solid choice

mikesr1963 · Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:22 am

Ruger. Do not skimp.

peskypesky · Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:49 am

what about this baby?

: download.jpg (6.57 KiB) Viewed 2937 times

https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/victrix ... fire-rifle

nomadh · Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:13 am

fatjack wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:38 pm Just my opinion but I'd avoid any .38 with a 2 inch barrel there's a reason the FBI requires a 3" minimum on service weapons

I though 2" was pretty common. At least for detectives back when. I suppose it is harder to sight and they can work like a flamethrower with the right slow burn: )

nomadh · Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:16 am

uwmcscott wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:08 pm The Taurus G2C comes to mind. I shot one a few months ago and it has good capacity, a manual safety and I think they are about $200 ish? For carry it’s a good size too but it kicked a lot more than my SigP365 which is a hefty little package.

I think having a gun you feel comfortable with and can shoot accurately is more important than caliber or “stopping power”. That term is a lot like “tone” when it comes to guitars.

This sounds great for $200. For me at least but I cant find any in ca. Is there a similar new model number?

fatjack · Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:27 am

Well you can always get a gun shop to order you one in assuming they are Cali. legal. Found these videos.

uwmcscott · Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:02 pm

nomadh wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:16 am This sounds great for $200. For me at least but I cant find any in ca. Is there a similar new model number?

G2C is still the current model number, although it does come stock with 12 round capacity so the CA rules would make that a problem. Seems like just about all the major manufacturers are making CA complient models too, but probably harder to find.

Another one you might want to check out is the Smith and Wesson M&P line. I have the 22lr version of their compact model, it's about the exact same size physically as the M&P9. The triggers aren't quit as nice as the other guns I own ( Sig/Glock ) but I do really like the way the M&Ps feel in your hand. The are pretty affordable too, I have seen the M&P9 under $250 on some sites at times.

Raindog · Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:16 am

Any Smith and Wesson model 19 over 4". There's a reason that it was carried for years by military personal and law enforcement, before the semi-auto became king. It is simple, always fires, dirty or clean, and works with the pull of a trigger. You can practice with .38s and carry .357 for protection. No safety. Perfect for the non-proficient gun owner. Can be had for under $300.

brentona · Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:34 am

First let me start with this -

You are going to trust your LIFE to this item. There isn't room for going in a cheap direction. You need something that can be fired with every trigger pull and hit its intended target. I know that you mentioned Hi-Point C9. A lot of times you have better accuracy and reliability by throwing that at the target, not even mentioning its weight which is also a big thing to consider. Capacity is a consideration but it is not a deal breaker. Most confrontations are settled in as little as 3 shots.
On the subject of "no revolver under 2' barrel" . Any gun can be shot well with practice. I pocket carry an 1 7/8" 5- shot .38 Smith religiously. I shoot the firearm very well under duress in training situations, and constantly clover at controlled range scenarios. Practice is everything with a pistol, you don't shoot often and dominate your muscle memory, you will miss.

Lastly my question is this, what is your worst case scenario? What is the intended use of this weapon? Living in CA does not offer you the ability to carry, so why bother with a pistol? They are inherently much more difficult to shoot for a variety of reasons when compared to a long gun. If this is 100% home defense, and the intended users are not regular trigger pullers, this is my recommendation.

20 gauge pump shotgun. They just work. 20 gauge is a very mild loading and there are even reduced recoil loads for it. Shotguns approach things from a point, not so much aim, train of thought. The weapon DOES need to be pointed at the target, but precision is a lesser importance being that you are not banking on a single projectile to hit its intended target. Best thing is the cost of these simple, efficient tools. I would highly recommend picking up an older Remington 870 (80's era is possible). First it is going to be dirt cheap. Second, it is made of quality steel where the newer Freedom Group iterations, though still a very viable tool, are made a little more cost efficient to the manufacturer.

One last questions. What is the domicile? Single family? Condo, apartment? That will greatly affect your weapon choice and ammunition choice. Let me know on this matter and I can better recommend from that.

I shoot guns, a lot. I know guns very well. I'm not trying to be a know it all nose in the air, but in terms of firearms, I am well read. Hope this helps!

brentona · Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:53 am

1984 870 in 12ga. One of the multitude of firearms strategically placed in the house. I am a firm believer of -

If you’re in a fair fight, you f#cked up. Overwhelming force is the path to victory.

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brentona · Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:04 pm

One last comment on shotguns.
You mention it destroying everything in the room. Shotgun spread isn’t as large as the movies make it seem!! If you go this route, and I recommend it, have him watch some videos on shot selection and patterned groups.

During situations of extreme duress, fine motor control goes out the window. It’s reassuring to have two simple manipulations to control. Cock the large forearm, no small parts, and pull the trigger.

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tonebender · Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:10 pm

Taurus makes reasonably priced weapons in the class you are seeking. Perhaps the SX of guns as you put it. My Slim 9MM has proven very dependable even with cheap reloads it does not misfire. I have others that are fine with premium loads but sometimes fail to process reloads. It's ok to fail on the range but only use premium ammo when carrying a weapon for self-defense. Consider not cutting cost corners on a carry weapon.

brentona · Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:03 pm

tonebender wrote:Taurus makes reasonably priced weapons in the class you are seeking. Perhaps the SX of guns as you put it. My Slim 9MM has proven very dependable even with cheap reloads it does not misfire. I have others that are fine with premium loads but sometimes fail to process reloads. It's ok to fail on the range but only use premium ammo when carrying a weapon for self-defense. Consider not cutting cost corners on a carry weapon.

OP is in California. Carry isn’t an option.

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Raindog · Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:13 am

brentona wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:03 pm OP is in California. Carry isn’t an option.

Let me amend your statement to: LEGAL carry isn't an option. I'll never be one to advise someone to do something illegally. However, I do like the saying "Better to be judged by 12 instead of carried by 6."

tonebender · Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:24 am

For home defense I recommend a Mossberg 12 GA pump as the primary.

PsychoCid · Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:45 am

tonebender wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:24 am For home defense I recommend a Mossberg 12 GA pump as the primary.

I also recommend keeping a [mention]Mossman[/mention] around for home defense. Those guys know how to survive in the wild. They also know how to build guitars and Commodores and things, high adaptability to any situation!

(With all appreciation to Ed)

brentona · Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:04 am

Raindog wrote:
brentona wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:03 pm OP is in California. Carry isn’t an option.
Let me amend your statement to: LEGAL carry isn't an option. I'll never be one to advise someone to do something illegally. However, I do like the saying "Better to be judged by 12 instead of carried by 6."

Right. I actually lived that Mantra while I was in Maryland. It’s one of my favorite phrases. Now that I live in NC, a free state, I can actually carry out my rights.

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brentona · Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:06 am

tonebender wrote:For home defense I recommend a Mossberg 12 GA pump as the primary.

12ga can be intimidating to non-regular shooters. Sure there are low recoil loadings, but 20ga is far more controllable. The bad guy won’t know the difference between the two either. Heck a .410 is devastating. End of the day, you don’t want more holes in you’re body than you were born with.

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PsychoCid · Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:37 am

brentona wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:04 am
Raindog wrote:
brentona wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:03 pm OP is in California. Carry isn’t an option.
Let me amend your statement to: LEGAL carry isn't an option. I'll never be one to advise someone to do something illegally. However, I do like the saying "Better to be judged by 12 instead of carried by 6."
Right. I actually lived that Mantra while I was in Maryland. It’s one of my favorite phrases. Now that I live in NC, a free state, I can actually carry out my rights.

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NC a free state may be the funniest thing I've heard this year. Free-er than Californistan though, as far as the public can see. But that's like describing the tip of an iceberg...90% of it is invisible below the water.