Used car shopping gets you down....

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PoodlesAgain
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Spouse wants to move off her trusty Odyssey, is looking for something smaller, crossover-ish, with a tiny bit more plush.

So, we looked around for something, 2017-2019, maybe coming off lease, as we have done in the past with luck.

Problem is, most cars in the "tiny-bit-more-plush" category have turbocharged engine, fancy complicated gearing, etc. As an example, we looked at the service record of a 2017 Bavarian offering... doggoneit, is that turbo fragile!

So, it is used car shopping blues.
Interestingly, this is the first time price is not really the issue, after 3/4+ of a lifetime buying cheap or sensible.
I dunno if this is good or bad... :?

EDIT: I am curious to know what happens when several micro-systems in modern cars cease to function. Toss like a cellphone?
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up until a few months ago, i was selling KIA and the customer satisfaction, loyalty factor was pretty strong.
I own an older KIA myself, since before i worked there, without all the new tech. But everything newish out there is competing on tech right now.
Most things are modular right now, you can protect yourself with an extended warranty, but be sure to include the electronics for the small extra cost.
The powertrain stuff, I agree crazy complex, continuously variable stuff not so sure about that. I drive a stick LOL.

The big picture is, cars are way more safer, feature loaded and comfortable than they ever have been before. The reliable part you can insure against, it's just downtime that might suck... some extendeds give you loaners too.
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fatjack
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Well I'll warn you as family has owned several Bavarian cars and a couple Mercedes. Go with M B BMW makes wonderful driving cars but servicing and parts are stupid expensive. Mercedes parts just as expensive just last longer. Off lease could do it especially with Hertz and others dumping cars. They have some upscale cars, not sure if that is your market though.
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Rollin Hand
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Plush is easy these days, regardless of make. If you are used to Honda relability, German cars will destroy you. They are not made to last the way the Japanese (or heck, even Korean) models are. I would not buy German without a very good extended warranty. Also, before you think of it, do NOT buy a Land Rover.

Of the choices out there, I would go Acura. They have a good sized V6 in the MDX, and it still drives like a Honda.

The new Mazdas are wonderful too, if not exactly "stonking".
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Rollin Hand wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:44 pm Also, before you think of it, do NOT buy a Land Rover.
What? Dude, you´re killing me! I LOVE Land Rovers!!

Well, being a little more specific, I only love the old, first generation Range Rover, just before air suspension and electronic everything.

A nice 1988-1995 model - again, no air suspension - is what a I want. Stick or auto, either one is ok for me.

I don´t want it to fly on the highway; I don´t want it to go from 0 to 100 mph in 6 seconds or less. (speed was -is?- one of the most criticized aspects of LRs in general, and then, reliability).

I know they don´t rank best in seveal categories, but man, the 8 years I had my old 1981 Range Rover (1993-2001) I can count with the fingers of one of my hands the times she left me stranded.

But I understand the point. And I´m actually not a LR fan anymore, new vehicles totally out of concept and purpose. Why would I want a SUV/OffRoad vehicle that I´d be afraid of getting it into the mud because of all that leather and electric/electronic everything? (same criticism applies to many other big brands). I remain an old school guy regarding Land Rovers, Jeeps and Toyotas - off road vehicles in general, actually -.

LOL I didn´t intend to derail OP thread, sorry. But I was caught by surprise... :)

But you got me curious: why did you specifically said "don´t buy a Land Rover"? Any personal experience? would love to hear it, if that´s the case...
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Rollin Hand
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sabasgr68 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:41 pm
Rollin Hand wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:44 pm Also, before you think of it, do NOT buy a Land Rover.
What? Dude, you´re killing me! I LOVE Land Rovers!!

Well, being a little more specific, I only love the old, first generation Range Rover, just before air suspension and electronic everything.

A nice 1988-1995 model - again, no air suspension - is what a I want. Stick or auto, either one is ok for me.

I don´t want it to fly on the highway; I don´t want it to go from 0 to 100 mph in 6 seconds or less. (speed was -is?- one of the most criticized aspects of LRs in general, and then, reliability).

I know they don´t rank best in seveal categories, but man, the 8 years I had my old 1981 Range Rover (1993-2001) I can count with the fingers of one of my hands the times she left me stranded.

But I understand the point. And I´m actually not a LR fan anymore, new vehicles totally out of concept and purpose. Why would I want a SUV/OffRoad vehicle that I´d be afraid of getting it into the mud because of all that leather and electric/electronic everything? (same criticism applies to many other big brands). I remain an old school guy regarding Land Rovers, Jeeps and Toyotas - off road vehicles in general, actually -.

LOL I didn´t intend to derail OP thread, sorry. But I was caught by surprise... :)

But you got me curious: why did you specifically said "don´t buy a Land Rover"? Any personal experience? would love to hear it, if that´s the case...
Old ones? Fine, as long as you have a pan under it to catch drips (that shouldn'thappen either, but I digress. Plush newer ones, like the type of vehicle the OP is looking at, are notoriously unreliable. Like catastrophically so. One blogger (Doug Demuro) got an extended warranty on his newer Range Rover. In no time he had $7K in repairs done under warranty.

Then there was the one an older neighbour had. Bought it new. Less then a year in, on a really cold day, that sucker was listing to port like crazy. They were great off roaders. Now they are overly complex, over engineered, over priced junk.
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dabbler
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Go look at a 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport. Go for the one with a panoramic sunroof. Even if she doesn't wind up choosing it, it will be a good benchmark.

I promise.
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Rollin Hand wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:12 pm
sabasgr68 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:41 pm
Rollin Hand wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:44 pm Also, before you think of it, do NOT buy a Land Rover.
What? Dude, you´re killing me! I LOVE Land Rovers!!

Well, being a little more specific, I only love the old, first generation Range Rover, just before air suspension and electronic everything.

A nice 1988-1995 model - again, no air suspension - is what a I want. Stick or auto, either one is ok for me.

I don´t want it to fly on the highway; I don´t want it to go from 0 to 100 mph in 6 seconds or less. (speed was -is?- one of the most criticized aspects of LRs in general, and then, reliability).

I know they don´t rank best in seveal categories, but man, the 8 years I had my old 1981 Range Rover (1993-2001) I can count with the fingers of one of my hands the times she left me stranded.

But I understand the point. And I´m actually not a LR fan anymore, new vehicles totally out of concept and purpose. Why would I want a SUV/OffRoad vehicle that I´d be afraid of getting it into the mud because of all that leather and electric/electronic everything? (same criticism applies to many other big brands). I remain an old school guy regarding Land Rovers, Jeeps and Toyotas - off road vehicles in general, actually -.

LOL I didn´t intend to derail OP thread, sorry. But I was caught by surprise... :)

But you got me curious: why did you specifically said "don´t buy a Land Rover"? Any personal experience? would love to hear it, if that´s the case...
Old ones? Fine, as long as you have a pan under it to catch drips (that shouldn'thappen either, but I digress. Plush newer ones, like the type of vehicle the OP is looking at, are notoriously unreliable. Like catastrophically so. One blogger (Doug Demuro) got an extended warranty on his newer Range Rover. In no time he had $7K in repairs done under warranty.

Then there was the one an older neighbour had. Bought it new. Less then a year in, on a really cold day, that sucker was listing to port like crazy. They were great off roaders. Now they are overly complex, over engineered, over priced junk.
Quoting you again: "They were great off roaders. Now they are overly complex, over engineered, over priced junk."

You´re totally right, and that´s why I started to dislike them. No need to add more. I love old Rangies/Landies because they are the opposite.
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Lexus RX. Outdated? Sure. But it always beats whatever competing car is in the shop for the fifteenth time.
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Rollin Hand
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sabasgr68 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:37 pm
Quoting you again: "They were great off roaders. Now they are overly complex, over engineered, over priced junk."

You´re totally right, and that´s why I started to dislike them. No need to add more. I love old Rangies/Landies because they are the opposite.
I love the look of the old Range Rovers,and have entertained thoughts of the ubiquitous LSX swap, but I don't need anything else to do.

And as for the Lexus....they are Toyotas at the core. I very seriously considered one last car shopping experience, but I don't fit well in most cars, and this is the case in the RX. The NX could be a good choice, and, quite frankly, I nearly went RAV4. But the Acura fits me, and is NOYCE.

Fir the record, I ended up in a 2016 Sonata Sport 2.0T. It came down to that or the Accord Sport 1.5T, and I couldn't justify the extra money for the new Honda. Kind of kicking myself now, but only a little.
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If it gets you down Poodles, DON'T DO IT! :)
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sabasgr68
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Rollin Hand wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:13 am I love the look of the old Range Rovers,and have entertained thoughts of the ubiquitous LSX swap, but I don't need anything else to do.
The fact that you´ve actually thought on doing an engine swap to a Classic Range Rover already tells me you qualify as a RR fan! Great. I´ve entertained those kind of - useless in my case -thoughts too. :)
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mickey wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:50 am If it gets you down Poodles, DON'T DO IT! :)
Good advice, but remember, is his spouse that wants! You got to do what you got to do! For spouses, everything!

By the way, [mention]PoodlesAgain[/mention] , have you find something suitable?
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I can remember in the 70's my dad having a 1967 Land rover, aluminum body, non synchronized 1st gear, push button start on the dash. Safari wagon just like on tv. I know he sold it before i was 16 to some guy who said he had one and it was in a barn fire, the whole body melted.
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Supposedly the Hertz bankruptcy is going to flush the used market with their rentals. It might be an option to look at.
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The wife hated her car (2015 Chevy Cruze) and wanted something different. We'd had a Ford Edge a while back and she really liked it so we decided to go down that road again. she finds a 2016 Edge Sport at a local Ford dealership. All black, lots of bells and whistles. It's $23K with 35000 miles on the odometer.

I start looking up the same car within 300 miles and see that the typical price for the edge is about $26K. So I'm thinking, "Wow... that's really good price... I wonder what the catch is?" :? We're going to be nearby the dealership that day anyway, so we decide to drop in.

We get to the dealer and see the car with a big sticker on it: $25,949. The lot lackey comes out and we say "this isn't the price you advertised online" and he starts asking us if we were military, owned farmland, etc... "See, that price you saw on the internet Is with all the discounts applied" :roll:

"Ohhh..." I say looking at the missus. "Discounts". with the fingers in the air making quotes. The lackey already doesn't like me. Good.

The missus really likes the car. We're leaving for Florida the next morning and tell the guy we aren't buying today but will check to see if the car is still there when we return. Sure enough, we get back and the car is still there. We test drive it and all is well.

The wife says she wants it for the price they listed online, after some hemming and hawing they finally agree. They try to shaft us on the trade (The car is now in the front yard with a for sale sign :roll: ) coming up with some ridiculous monthly payment number. We get annoyed and leave. Are we are getting in the car the lackey chases us down (this is so annoying. I absolutely hate when car dealers do this) saying his boss wants to talk to us.

We're going to put $5K down and the wife says "I only wan't a loan for 19K". The back and forth starts again. Now we go to the boss, then the big boss, then the bigger boss. They keep trying to steer her into a higher price telling her "we can't do that" The boss of the boss of the boss says "Look, meet me half way on-" thats when I cut the guy off saying "Man, I've been married to her for 10 years. I assure you she's not going to budge."

They all break up laughing and agree to the price she wanted. Kudos to her for standing her ground. She's a tough cookie! :lol:
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Regarding the latest technologies...

as you mention the engine here i's a complex setup: Direct injection, Twin-turbo. :shock: A lot of the problems you hear about with the Edge are a result of maintenance the owner is never told they need to do. For example, the Edge is well known to have PTU problems and the Direct injection can get gummed/carboned up. The PTU originally wasn't a serviceable part (Awful idea) but it is now and the fluid needs to be changed every 30K. Not even ford's website or owners manual tells you this. Direct injection means the fuel doesn't go through an intake plenum or intake valve. It's put DIRECTLY into the cylinder. When they go bad? $$$$$$$

Why does this happen?: I'll just quote from JLT's page here:

During the process of venting crankcase pressure back through your intake track, large amounts of oil, in the form of vapors, intake tube, intake manifold runners and even dilute your gas, lowering its octane level. This happens on all engines and is even worse with forced inducted vehicles (supercharged and turbocharged) as crankcase pressures are increased. To combat this, we have developed an oil separator of our own design. Milled from solid billet aluminum this is a rock-solid piece. It has a knurled tank base for easy removal to drain the spent oil and an O-ring seal to prevent any leaks.

TL/DR - The oil mist gums up the direct injectors and valves. Get a separator and a good quality synthetic oil to reduce carbon.

https://www.jlttruecoldair.com/jlt-3-0- ... -ecoboost/

None of this is a guarantee, but it should help extend the longevity of the car.

WOW THAT'S A LONG POST!! :lol:
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Good storytelling, bro.
Nice tactics. Emulators will learn fast!

The missus knows her stuff...

What's the function of an oil separator, really?
That seems to be introduced in the middle of a fairly complex system.
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PoodlesAgain wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:22 pm Good storytelling, bro.
Nice tactics. Emulators will learn fast!

The missus knows her stuff...

What's the function of an oil separator, really?
That seems to be introduced in the middle of a fairly complex system.
Generically, not specific to the Edge - The main function of the separator is to keep the oil from getting to the intake valves and encrusting, impeding driveability and mileage. In a non-DI engine the gas going over the valves would clean the oil off.
Houblues
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A friend of mine doesn't put up with all the salesman tactics. He tells the person he's dealing with first thing that he has ONE chance to talk to the boss. After that, if the answer isn't reasonable he will walk. And he does.
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It's not the sport model but a 2.0 turbo, i'm on my 5th vehicle from these guys, no hassles, everything they sell is 1 or 2 years old max, factory warranty, they've met my bank on finance charges.

Used 2019 FordEdge SEL SUV
Odometer
24,652 miles
Fuel Economy
21.0/28.0 mpg City/Hwy
Exterior Color
Gray
Interior Color
Other
Body/Seating
SUV/5 seats
Transmission
8 speed automatic
Drivetrain
all-wheel drive
Engine
2.0L I-4 cyl

Simmons-Rockwell Price
$23,999
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Houblues wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:34 pm
PoodlesAgain wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:22 pm Good storytelling, bro.
Nice tactics. Emulators will learn fast!

The missus knows her stuff...

What's the function of an oil separator, really?
That seems to be introduced in the middle of a fairly complex system.
Generically, not specific to the Edge - The main function of the separator is to keep the oil from getting to the intake valves and encrusting, impeding driveability and mileage. In a non-DI engine the gas going over the valves would clean the oil off.
Yep, that's it exactly. the separator removes the oil before it gets to the valves and eventually carbons them up. Ya know, it's $150 part that ford could probably have made for $20 each, put it in the car and then make emptying it a part of the oil change procedure. Do that and add a section in the owners manual about the PTU in all wheel drive cars. That would resolve a TON of complaints. Nope. :roll: :lol:

Instead of $42,749 you sell it for $42,799. WHO's GOING TO CARE???? It's 40+K, another $50 isn't going to sway anyone!! :lol: :lol:

You know some bean counter somewhere decided it was going to cost too much and that ended that. Otherwise, it is a really nice car. ;)
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Are Suburu's in the running? I'd think they ought to get a good look. All wheel drive for the winter, Japanese reliability, keep their value. Just not sure about the plush factor and Mrs Poodles requirements on it.
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golem wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:42 pm Supposedly the Hertz bankruptcy is going to flush the used market with their rentals. It might be an option to look at.
We just rented a Yukon from them to drive to Florida for my dad's 80th birthday. It cost us $280 for a week. No I'm not kidding. I checked back again because my wife's dad has his 80th next month and the prices jumped to $1000+ for the same car. Go figure.
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Houblues wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:36 pm A friend of mine doesn't put up with all the salesman tactics. He tells the person he's dealing with first thing that he has ONE chance to talk to the boss. After that, if the answer isn't reasonable he will walk. And he does.
Yeah, I'm more like that; I could not put up with the kind of thing Houblues described. If I walk into a place and point at the advertised price, and they go "Oh, well, that's the special price" I'm walking out right then. I might miss out on some deals but I also miss out on the headache.
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Rollin Hand
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Houblues wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:36 pm A friend of mine doesn't put up with all the salesman tactics. He tells the person he's dealing with first thing that he has ONE chance to talk to the boss. After that, if the answer isn't reasonable he will walk. And he does.
That is the power the buyer has: to walk.

I have heard of some horrible practices though,like dealerships refusing to give back the car keys while browbeating the prospective buyer into making the purchase. I would have my primary set of keys in my pocket, while saying "give me my car right now, or I will call the police."

The problem is dealerships like that paint them all with a bad brush. And not all of them are bad. I have been lucky enough to have the good experiences outweigh the bad ones.
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