Question About The New Fangled Modeling Stuff

[tonebender]

I put this in the Modeler Amps topic category but I suppose I am not talking about a "Modeling Amp". I notice a lot of bands these days are not using amps at all but have gone to a Helix or some other floor based multi-effects unit into the PA. I have to admit what I am hearing sounds damn good, way better than the early days of this type technology.

Here is my dilemma, for some reason my amps seem to be gaining weight. My guitars are too but the weight relieved Goldtop is still quite manageable. I have read where one loses 10% of one's strength each year after 60. Makes sense because my amps seem to weigh 70% more now than they did 7 years ago. Here is the formula:

(Original Amp Wt. x .1)(Current Age -60) + Original Amp Wt. = Seems Like Weight

Example:

(30 x .1)(67-60) + 30 = 51 lbs.

As a result of this scientific phenomenon, I am considering a small floor based modeling pedal and a light weight powered guitar speaker cabinet. I play in band that puts an emphasis on blues and vintage tone. I am not sure they even let me remain in the band with such modern solid state gear. The other issue is out whole PA consists of one Bose L1 Pro 32 and two small powered monitors for me and the other vocalist. We are pretty subdued in general when it comes to volume but it does sound good. I do not think it would be a good idea to run my guitar through the PA even though I do run my acoustic through it. It will at least look like I have an amp with a powered cabinet.

I was looking at the a POD Express, the small Boss or the TC Electronic Plethora 3x. All are way more than I need. I only need three tones, clean, rhythm crunch and lead overdrive. Or a different approach would be to use my current three pedals, tuner overdrive and overdrive and add a preamp pedal. I could route that to the powered cab and voile, I think. I would appreciate any thoughts. Keep in my I want it to be simple as possible, no Kemper or Fractal or Software, etc. I would like it to operate a close as possible to my analog rig.

Thanks

[deeaa]

Well,

That's the way to do it these days. I've been using modelers of some kind for over 20 years now, and currently have nothing but any more.

There are many many options. My own rig now is just a laptop in a rack, and a soundcard, and I can use any PA or FRFR speaker, or a rack power amp and cab(s) if I like.

But, I use a Boss GX-100 a lot for recording without any lag etc, and I used it with the band quite a bit, and it's always an option/backup. I also use normal pedals with it now and then.
I just mixed a top-40 band and the guitarist played his strat with the smaller GX-10 version and they had zero amps on stage and it all sounded absolutely stellar.

So I would absolutely recommend one of these, cheap, reliable, all Boss effects you'd need, and quite cheap. If you're fine with just a couple of sounds, even a GX-10 might work great.

BUT all in all, going all modeler has a steep learning curve really. A lot of the things you're used to are even totally opposite.

Such as - and this is really a key thing starting out with modelers - you really don't want too hot an output from the guitar, and you don't want to run your modeler input even on amber, it can't be even near clipping to sound good.

Most of the time, lower your pickups way lower than you'd use them with real amps and the sound improves drastically.

The second most pivotal thing with a lot of these gadgets is - you MUST use EQ to get rid of the excess frequency range and make it sound beefy and nice like a real amp.

That means basically using the master EQ to completely kill off EVERYTHING below 60hz or so, and also above 5-6K depending how bright and spanky sounds you need. For rock, 5K is usually great.

And then it'll sound a little dull, so you need to give it a nice bell curve boost at about 4K, that'll give it nice presence and upper mid 'beef' to the sound. You may need to add a slight bass boost just about at the 60hz cut as well.

Those two things taken care of, these things sound absolutely great and at any volume.
Even a surprisingly light PA will work just fine, but it's good to have something on stage as well for personal monitoring. Pretty much any active PA cab will do, preferably something you can place as a floor wedge or upright, and has basic tone controls. I have for instance a 120W Laney 15" plus tweeter active cab I bought used for 100;. and it's really nice. It doesn't get killer loud at all, but it's enough with acoustic drums as well. But I have other systems as well.

[deeaa]

Here's my current modeling rig. It has an old 9-year old Lenovo laptop, w11 forced in, 8gb, ssd, i3 cpu, and it runs Ableton Live! Where I have five channels open and running at all times, and will place whatever modeler plugs I want on those. Then I can just solo which one I want to hear, so the changes are seamless from sound to sound.

The beauty of it is that I can endelessly add and change sounds, with my Mosfite band I'll use Neural plugins, but I can save the project with a different name and use Amplitube or any plugin I want in any order I want, and thus it's never going to be outdated.

Speakers are a Celestion FX400 or something, anyway made for modelers with a very flat response. It's not as good as PA speaker for overall but it does sound more like a normal amp for 'kick' and it's REALLY loud too with 2x60W rack amp. I mean, a PA speaker must be like 800w to compete, as they just don't kick as well as a 12" guitar speaker. So it's great for personal monitor on stage.

Anyway...this is a great subject and like I said, I've been tinkering with these for plus 20 years now and I have a lot of experience so I'm happy to try and give any insight on the subject for sure.

[deeaa]

Sorry the site isn't really adding pics now it seems...

[tonebender]

Thanks for all the info, good stuff!

I was perusing FRFR speakers and they are as heavy as an amp in some cases. I also now know why I see these Headrush speakers in the stores. I have never even heard of the FRFR speakers until yesterday. This is a whole new world for me. I think I may try a Hughes & Kettner Red Box and try using my current pedal board into that and then in the PA or my own powered speaker. Meanwhile I will endeavor to put together something and get it under control at home before rolling it out with the band.

[tonebender]

It looks like I could get the Boss GX-10 and Bluetooth connect to my EV ZLX. That would sure be a simple set up.

[Rollin Hand]

Ine thing I will say about my modeling experience so far is: Impulse responses. I have my HX Stomp XL, which was all fine and dandy, but downloading a bunch of free impulse responses made it much better.

One of the guys I jam with uses a Pod Go with Alto powered speakers (same company as Headrush) and it sounds great.

[Tonray's Ghost]

It looks like I could get the Boss GX-10 and Bluetooth connect to my EV ZLX. That would sure be a simple set up.

I'm not so sure the Bluetooth function is intended to be used that way. I think the main use for bluetooth in these devices is to connect an aux audio source such as your phone or computer to the device in order to stream backing tracks thru the device into whatever speaker/amp system you might have cabled up to it. In addition, Boss has taken on the nickel and dime strategy of selling you an extra add-on Bluetooth module that plugs into the back of the unit instead of building that functionality within the device.

[tlarson58]

Weird double post. sorry

[tlarson58]

Check out a Quilter Power block US (inexpensive) and a 12" quilter lightweight cab (expensive). The power block is a modeler/25-watt amp that can run both to a PA (via xlr) and a cabinet at the same time. I use the xlr output for my DAW.

I love it. My set up cost $800. I use it primarily at home but have brought it to practice and can use it for a gig if amps were frowned upon. It's analog, too. Not digital.

P.S. Great OP. I had a good chuckle.

[tonebender]

I plugged my existing pedal board into my EV powered speaker last evening both straight and through a DI and it worked just fine. However, I did not like the sound in general. I can see why @deeaa went into such detail with EQ, frequencies, etc., in order to get some good tone. I am currently regretting selling my Vox Night Train and Cabinet. It was light weight and sounded fantastic. I am looking for that set up now but can only find the head. So far I cannot find one of the original NT 1x12 cabinets for sale. If I do not find one soon I will get a Mojotone lightweight cab and put a Celestion Century in it. That would be under 30lbs and should serve me well.

[golem]

Technically, the quilter isn't a modeler, but I agree that it sounds good. The various settings are just changing EQ and gain structure a bit

[deeaa]

Yeah, the Boss Bluetooth is just for doing all the controlling with a phone or tablet not the sound.

I used a red box back in the Day, but modern IR boxes are far better. Had a Mooer Radar, A Torpedo CAB, many others.

By far the simplest thing is a modeler like some Boss etc straight into an FRFR can, but it does have to be a modeler with IR cab emulation, just a Red Box etc won't cut it. And even then you do need to EQ it.

A buddy of mine uses a BluGuitar amp and that's amazingly compact as well, it is a 100w amp as well as an amp modeler and with their 1x12" cab it's extremely portable and good sounding indeed.

But if I had to buy a whole new guitar rig today, I would most likely bite the bullet and buy a Neural Quad Cortex and an active cab like a Laney, if I could afford it.

Or then Id just build another rig around a laptop. Or even an iPad running Amplitube.

Hopefully now the photo of my rig uploads.

So there's an old i3 Lenovo laptop inside, And a 2x60w rack amp, a MOTU2 soundcard and dual galvanic separators from Palmer to ensure no ground noise to Pa, and two 1x12" cabs so I can bring one or two if I like. Stereo of course.

And Neural plugins in Ableton Live! In the laptop.

Sent from my Pixel 8a using Tapatalk

[tonebender]

I really appreciate all the input and I learned a lot. I will be pursuing the floor based processor off to the side. In the meantime, I ordered a 1x12 Mojotone Lite Series cabinet that weighs in at 13lbs. I ordered a Celestion Century speaker at 4.4lbs. so the cab will check in at under 20lbs. I also ordered a Night Train G2 head at 16lbs. This will give me a very manageable rig from a weight standpoint and I will still enjoy the old school tube goodness. I can also use my Luker boutique head with this cab.

Getting old sucks. With age comes wisdom and better technology. That is a great combination. Being able to get big and better sound out of smaller, lighter gear really helps to keep old guys like me out there.

[golem]

I really appreciate all the input and I learned a lot. I will be pursuing the floor based processor off to the side. In the meantime, I ordered a 1x12 Mojotone Lite Series cabinet that weighs in at 13lbs. I ordered a Celestion Century speaker at 4.4lbs. so the cab will check in at under 20lbs. I also ordered a Night Train G2 head at 16lbs. This will give me a very manageable rig from a weight standpoint and I will still enjoy the old school tube goodness. I can also use my Luker boutique head with this cab.

Getting old sucks. With age comes wisdom and better technology. That is a great combination. Being able to get big and better sound out of smaller, lighter gear really helps to keep old guys like me out there.

I snagged one of those Mojotone Lite 1X12s used to use with a EVM 12 Black Label (one of the heavier speakers on the market). Together they still feel like a reasonable weight rather than heavy and the speaker sounds good. I'm a big fan of neo speakers for saving weight, but haven't tried the Century yet.

[tonebender]

I snagged one of those Mojotone Lite 1X12s used to use with a EVM 12 Black Label (one of the heavier speakers on the market). Together they still feel like a reasonable weight rather than heavy and the speaker sounds good. I'm a big fan of neo speakers for saving weight, but haven't tried the Century yet.

I am hoping the Century performs as billed. I read where it is on par with a V30 which has been my speaker of choice the last few years.

[sabasgr68]

Can´t wait to "see"/hear your final rig setup.

I also learned a lot here, and also adquired new words to investigate.

I always remember a line of Rush's Mystic Rhythms: "The more we think we know about, the greater the unknown". Heard it in my 20s, and it still resonates in my head.

[tlarson58]

Did you ever make a video? You asked the same type of question about the process.

[RockYoWorld]

Sorry for not thoroughly reading through the whole thread here before sharing my thoughts and experiences, but I work solely with modelers, but that can be with full DI and IEM systems to using powered FRFR cabs to using a traditional cab and a power amp.

I use Fractal systems (Axe FX III, FM9T, and FM3T) but you can take what I've learned and apply it with many systems. I've learned that the "speaker" is one of the most important parts of the electric guitar sound. It's not necessarily, "this is good" or "this is bad" but the experience a type of monitor or speaker provides is a huge part of why many people don't like monitors. Also, having ZERO stage volume can be a bad thing for some styles of music and/or certain venues.

I've learned that I have to be modular and flexible with my band to ensure that we can provide the best sound for what the show calls for. We are an original pop punk band that plays a range of small local shows in a venue with a mixer that only has 4 channels up to large stages supporting national bands. We run direct with our full IEM rig when we can, but will play with only traditional cabs for the small ones. We also have done both when it makes sense. The nice thing about Fractal is that it's super easy to create presets that are flexible and allow you to have as simple or complex of tweaks that you need to get the sound you want. I'm sure you can get similar results with other brands too.

I have a FRFR speaker that I spent too much money on because it's carbon fiber and super lightweight. It's the GR Guitar AT G210A FRFR. Super portable, but I don't like the sound. I made it usable using an EQ on the output of my Fractal units going to it, but I mainly use it as an expensive stand in my studio room now. My friend has the newer Fender FRFR cab and it sounds much better and more "guitar amp-like." It is heavier but manageable.

I also have used a 1U Matrix power amp that was in the rack with my Axe FX III. I bought it used and it worked great a few times and then broke. It's currently on my workbench, needing some chip to get soldered into it.

What I use now is a Seymour Duncan PowerStage. It's a great solution for all of my modelers. I wish they had a better rack-mounted option, but we use the ones that can just sit on top of the cab. I like that there are BMT controls right on the unit for quick tuning.

As far as cabs, I often use cabs that are provided as backline by the venue or another band we're playing with. If we need to bring cabs, I have a pair of Blackstar St. James Vertical 2 x 12-inch Cabinets (one for me, one for the other guitarist). They don't sound as good as a Marshall 4x12 but they're also SUPER lightweight. I also like vertical 2x12's better than horizontal ones for a few reasons.

There is no true ONE SOLUTION but I hope my long rambling has given you some ideas. If you go the route of a power amp and cab, make sure you go with a modeler that allows you to turn off cab emulation.

Let me know if you have any questions!

[Tonray's Ghost]

I have a FRFR speaker that I spent too much money on because it's carbon fiber and super lightweight. It's the GR Guitar AT G210A FRFR. Super portable, but I don't like the sound. I made it usable using an EQ on the output of my Fractal units going to it, but I mainly use it as an expensive stand in my studio room now. My friend has the newer Fender FRFR cab and it sounds much better and more "guitar amp-like." It is heavier but manageable.

Every now and then one of the Fender ToneMaster FRFR cabs comes up for sale on facebook here in the Bangkok area. I am always tempted because I hear nothing but praise for them, especially since Fender fixed the early noise floor hiss issues. Someday, when I update my modeler (now using my NUX MG-30 and still gets the job done) I'll probably grab one. But the Laney Solid State 12 inch amp I bought last year has proved a great companion for the modeler too, and especially as the speaker breaks in, it sounds great.

[sabasgr68]

@RockYoWorld @Tonray's Ghost You sure you were speaking in English?

Joking , but really, I think I understood half of what you said. You guys know your things.