Helix vs Kemper/AxeFX In the mix

[Narsh]

Here is an A/B of my old setup and my new setup. Please Please let me know which one you like best. Any feedback is 100% welcome.

This the Kemper/AxeFX along with Parallaxe for the bass:


This is the Helix:

[doc-knapp]

Liked the Kemper/AxeFx a million times better than the Helix.

[Narsh]

Thanks Doc, a million times eh, curious as to what drew you to that one. The biggest difference to my ears is that the Helix mix has the high mids pumped and I brought the lows down a bit too much.

[Narsh]

Ok so listening to it again and again and again my ears are fried. I redid the mix before work this morning like 20 times but the Kemper and AxeFX have 5 years of my life dedicated to the pursuit of sonic perfection so, yes, they sound more "alive" and natural where the Helix sounds like a modeler. I tweaked the IR's as well and cut out some of the digital-ness but it tends to sound too compressed. Again, 5 years, 300+ IR's to go through. Will be the same on the Helix.

The bass also has a lot to do with it. Parallaxe scoops mids out quite a bit but I despite sounding good in a mix, it always sounded "farty" to me - specially with the down tuned guitars. The helix patch I'm using adds grunt but makes it sound like I'm in a cone. (could be my ears at this point)Regardless, that will take some tweaking also.

There are so many variables to this that its going to definitely keep me tweaking and stressing over tone. The good news is that I will more than likely kick out tons of tunes in the process.

I'm going to start reproducing the AxeFX and Kemper Tones in the Helix tonight. But I'm fairly confident that you can make any of these units sound darn good if you put the time into it.

[solteroblues]

Maybe I'm the only one, but I actually liked the Helix better. I thought it sounded fuller and more like a real recording. I thought the Kemper/AFX sounded more thin and fizzy. I am listening on cheaper pc speakers, so maybe that's why.

[Narsh]

Maybe I'm the only one, but I actually liked the Helix better. I thought it sounded fuller and more like a real recording. I thought the Kemper/AFX sounded more thin and fizzy. I am listening on cheaper pc speakers, so maybe that's why.

Had the same issue. On my studio monitors the helix sounds like a polished studio recording but on my Logitech speakers the axe/Kemper sounds a little better. Beats AirPods the helix wins again but in the car, again axe/Kemper wins.

I have another remix where I tweaked the helix more but in the end I’m leaning towards replicating the mesa boogie rev f and 5150 I usually use on the Kemper and AxeFx.

[bleys21]

I forgot to listen to this yesterday. I do prefer the Kemper rig at this moment, and I believe you're spot on: you have a ton of experience making that rig sound great. As I've mentioned about the other songs, there is a certain "airy" feel to the Kemper/Axe rig that isn't coming across on the Helix (yet.)

That said, the Helix guitar sounded quite good as well, and I'm sure you'll get it dialed in with more practice and experience.

[Narsh]

I forgot to listen to this yesterday. I do prefer the Kemper rig at this moment, and I believe you're spot on: you have a ton of experience making that rig sound great. As I've mentioned about the other songs, there is a certain "airy" feel to the Kemper/Axe rig that isn't coming across on the Helix (yet.)

That said, the Helix guitar sounded quite good as well, and I'm sure you'll get it dialed in with more practice and experience.

THanks bud! You are too kind. The AxeFX and the Kemper both had the same issue when I started recording with them - and iteration after iteration it got better. I think the Kemper was by far the easiest to get a great tone with. Then just combining what worked and learning more about mixing in general.
I'll get there. The helix is an amazing unit and I like that I can do everything from there. Bot the AxeFX and the Kemper are rediculous tools - but I could never get a solid bass tone out of them like I can with the Helix and the Helix sounds very polished as opposed to "airy and raw" like the others. I'm looking to fall somewhere in between.

The main reason I'm looking for something besides the kemper or the axefx is because A. I've got a solid tone that I've been using for years and it sits well in the mix as is so I'm kinda bored of it. B. The tones I use for my mixes sound "meh" outside of the mix. So I don't get as inspired as I used to.
C. I have to layer 4 of them and do a bit of post processing to get them where they sound like they do. Which is again, uninspiring.

Plus who doesn't like playing with new gear?!

[doc-knapp]

On my speakers, the Helix sounds overly compressed and artificial.

[Narsh]

On my speakers, the Helix sounds overly compressed and artificial.

yep same on mine Doc. This is wildly fun though.

Here is my process so you can follow along:

Pre-requisites:
Master Bus post processing is set but disabled at first.
High Level EQ
Compressor
Limiter
Exciter

1a. Start with getting a great bare guitar tone, no post. Get this sounding great live.
Live tone and mix tone can be two totally different things. Usually live tones have a bit more bass and fullness where as mix tones have frequencies purposely ripped out so they sit in the mix better.

Main variables:
- the guitar tone itself and the IR used. IR's tend to have a very drastic effect on the character of the tone.
- multiple guitars and the tone stack they create. Usually you'll have a darker tone on the hard pan left track and a brighter tone on the right. supporting tracks usually have less low end and a bit more drive to fill out the overall tone.

1b. Apply high level Hi/Low Band pass EQ to rhythm guitar bus and see how guitars sit in mix with the drums. (snare is a great guide here)

2a. Sculpt Bass tone - similar process to guitar - bass guitar has A/B split with A passing only clean Low frequency and B passing only distorted high frequencies.

2b. Apply high level Band Pass EQ to bass guitar bus - side chain EQ so that Kick drum and Bass can "coexist"

3. Enable Master Bus

4. Configure additional post processing on individual tracks

I'm following a Master Class process Nolly Getgood did where he uses Top Down mixing. Meaning he sets the overall mix bus processing and mixes "into" that. That generally works but may need adjustment if you have totally drastic tone changes which is the case here. So, I have to pretty much start from scratch.

One last thing to note is something that may/may not have an effect on the tone itself is that the Helix is connected to Line Ins on my interface whereas the Kemper and AxeFX are going into Analog (front inputs). That could explain the difference I see on the recorded tone. Going to test that this weekend.

[golem]

Can I hear the difference? Yes.

Do I consider it a difference that one couldn't possibly adjust for (e.g., using EQ of other FX)? Probably.

Is one substantially better to my ears? No. I may like the first one (in order you presented) better, but I genuinely think both are good and giving you very respectable results. To me it's the difference between one preferring two slightly different amps.

I say this as someone who used to own a Helix and is waitlisted for an FM9 Turbo.

[Narsh]

Can I hear the difference? Yes.

Do I consider it a difference that one couldn't possibly adjust for (e.g., using EQ of other FX)? Probably.

Is one substantially better to my ears? No. I may like the first one (in order you presented) better, but I genuinely think both are good and giving you very respectable results. To me it's the difference between one preferring two slightly different amps.

I say this as someone who used to own a Helix and is waitlisted for an FM9 Turbo.

Thanks Golem - the issue I am going to focus on is that the Helix sounds different through the monitors than through the recording. My first guess is the way its connected via line in. I just received longer XLRs to go through the Analog input of my interface. That is the way the Kemper and Axefx are plugged in so I'm hoping its that.

My end goal is to use one unit for recording (most of the time). I would love to get guitars & bass going through the helix but the verdict is still out.