Earlier speaker break-up = low efficiency?

[tlarson58]

My Princeton Reverb breaks up nicely at 6 but I can only get it to 4 at practice before the band starts grumbling. It's not a huge jump in volume, but it's enough. The easy answer is to use a pedal but that's not what I'm going for.

Can I install a low-efficiency speaker to get to the overdriven tone at a slightly lower volume? Am I even asking the right question? I have a Z-lite attenuator in between the chassis and the speaker. It doesn't quite get there

A 10" Cannibus Rex is in there now. Sounds great. The amp came with a Celestion Gold which had way too much headroom and sounded ice-picky when I turned it up.

Suggestions appreciated.

[tonebender]

Man, I wish I knew the answer to that question. My off the cuff response is maybe get a 5-10W amp and dime it. Hotter pickups may help hit the amp hard enough to break it up at lower volumes. I always use a pedal for overdrive and I like the amp to remain clean but turned up enough to engage the power tubes significantly. I admire players that can have the amp at breakup but roll off the volume knob on the guitar for cleans the roll it up for lead breakup. My approach has been weak pickups, low wattage amps and a pedal for overdrive.

[mozz]

https://wgsusa.com/g10c#reviews

Less efficient, reviews look good for that style amp.

This one also, less efficient, getting good reviews too.
https://wgsusa.com/vet10#reviews

[tlarson58]

Man, I wish I knew the answer to that question. My off the cuff response is maybe get a 5-10W amp and dime it. Hotter pickups may help hit the amp hard enough to break it up at lower volumes. I always use a pedal for overdrive and I like the amp to remain clean but turned up enough to engage the power tubes significantly. I admire players that can have the amp at breakup but roll off the volume knob on the guitar for cleans the roll it up for lead breakup. My approach has been weak pickups, low wattage amps and a pedal for overdrive.

The Princeton is a 10-watter. 6 is just a tad too loud at band volume - and we play pretty loud, I think.

[tonebender]

My band mate uses a Princeton with a 12" speaker and he is loud. You must have a quiet drummer.

[tlarson58]

https://wgsusa.com/g10c#reviews

Less efficient, reviews look good for that style amp.

This one also, less efficient, getting good reviews too.
https://wgsusa.com/vet10#reviews

Still not sure if lower efficiency = earlier break-up. Very intriguing speakers. I am doing some research. Not to be a snob, but do I want to put a $60 speaker into a $1100 amp?

[Partscaster]

I dont know about efficiency,.....

A speaker with a thin cone and no ribs will break up easier.
an example is weber 12a125-O
the "O" is their smooth cone, breaks up earliest. Their "s" cone is a little less early with breakup, has a few ribs in cone,... but is easier to breakup than more sturdy ribbed cone models.IIRC.

I also remember being told by weber that a 20w speaker will break up easier than the same model of 30w speaker, but the 20w will sound brighter than the 30w. FWIW.

[toomanycats]

Set your Princeton Reverb at 6 where it breaks up nice, but face it towards the wall. You get the break up you want, the band won't grumble about the volume, and you didn't spend a nickel.

[Partscaster]

A lot of folks talk about "throwing a wet blanket" over their amps, IDK. Never tried it, must do something.

[Partscaster]

Related, but different, I once heard about people putting a disc via a stand in front of speaker. The idea is that the highs get dispersed better rather than get focused primarily forward. This technique might apply to an audience getting blasted directly in front while folks more to the sides may not hear enough. Similar to what TMC said.

here's a post at TGP on the subject
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index ... on.469631/

[andrewsrea]

+1 for @Partscaster idea.

@tlarson58 baffling may be your answer (wood, plexiglass, foam, blanket, etc), if the sound with the Cannabis Rex speaker and amp on '6' is exactly what you are after. Especially if you have isolated monitors, like 'in-ears' (remember it could be that on '6' the dB loudness could be exciting your ears, not the distortion).

If not, be prepared for a rabbit hole. Someone gave me advice to use Sweetwater or another company who allows returns, if you are going to sample and swap.

Last, make sure you learn where the different distortions are produced and how they react together, by experimenting. Pickups, pedals, pre-amp section, tone section, power amp section and speakers all have unique distortion and sustain characteristics. Also keep your expectations realistic. You are not going to get Pete Townsend's exact Hiwatt tone or SRV's exact modified Vibroverb tone at 68dB of loudness. For those, yuo need to run the system at near jet engine volume.

[mozz]

https://wgsusa.com/g10c#reviews

Less efficient, reviews look good for that style amp.

This one also, less efficient, getting good reviews too.
https://wgsusa.com/vet10#reviews

Still not sure if lower efficiency = earlier break-up. Very intriguing speakers. I am doing some research. Not to be a snob, but do I want to put a $60 speaker into a $1100 amp?

Depends on what's breaking up, the speaker or the amp? Lower efficiency means you have to turn the amp up. If you are using a attenuator, and it doesn't get the sound you are looking for, that means you are liking the speaker breakup, not the amp breakup. Only way to get more cone cry is you use a lower wattage or less efficient speaker. As to $60 speaker, what does it matter what the price is? I know people who like the cheapest Jensen Mod speakers. Chances are the manufacturer paid less than $60 for the factory speaker and a lot of people use that speaker without fail. Did you read the reviews on those speakers? Many people are mentioning the princeton that use those speakers. You didn't say what version of princeton amp you are using, there's probably 20 versions. A 59 tweed worth thousands or a princeton chorus which is garbage.

[tlarson58]

https://wgsusa.com/g10c#reviews

Less efficient, reviews look good for that style amp.

This one also, less efficient, getting good reviews too.
https://wgsusa.com/vet10#reviews

Still not sure if lower efficiency = earlier break-up. Very intriguing speakers. I am doing some research. Not to be a snob, but do I want to put a $60 speaker into a $1100 amp?

Depends on what's breaking up, the speaker or the amp? Lower efficiency means you have to turn the amp up. If you are using a attenuator, and it doesn't get the sound you are looking for, that means you are liking the speaker breakup, not the amp breakup. Only way to get more cone cry is you use a lower wattage or less efficient speaker. As to $60 speaker, what does it matter what the price is? I know people who like the cheapest Jensen Mod speakers. Chances are the manufacturer paid less than $60 for the factory speaker and a lot of people use that speaker without fail. Did you read the reviews on those speakers? Many people are mentioning the princeton that use those speakers. You didn't say what version of princeton amp you are using, there's probably 20 versions. A 59 tweed worth thousands or a princeton chorus which is garbage.

Thank you for the input. I'm thinking about a 20 or 25 watt speaker (I have a 50 watt in there now). The PR is a reissue (68, I think). I threw the price point out there besause I don't know what's garbage and what's not. I'm fishing and going down too many rabbit holes. Everything you guys submit is helping immensly.

[Partscaster]

If someone gets a Weber, ask them to do their free break in period. They plug it into some suitable signal for about a day before shipping.

[tlarson58]

If someone gets a Weber, ask them to do their free break in period. They plug it into some suitable signal for about a day before shipping.

the weber is high on my list.

[andrewsrea]

If someone gets a Weber, ask them to do their free break in period. They plug it into some suitable signal for about a day before shipping.

the weber is high on my list.

Weber's are great. I have a 4x10 Marshal cab (1965A) with (2) Weber Alnico 10F125 15w and (2) Weber Alnico Blue Pup 20w. The former is the late 50's tweed sound and they breakup quick but are a bit fizzy/ratty on the trebles. The Blue Pups break-up just a bit later and have a more pleasant rounder top-end (a cross between the Celestion Alnico Blue and a Celestion ceramic Greenback). If I was recommending for your amp, the Blue Pup would be it.

[tlarson58]

If someone gets a Weber, ask them to do their free break in period. They plug it into some suitable signal for about a day before shipping.

the weber is high on my list.

Weber's are great. I have a 4x10 Marshal cab (1965A) with (2) Weber Alnico 10F125 15w and (2) Weber Alnico Blue Pup 20w. The former is the late 50's tweed sound and they breakup quick but are a bit fizzy/ratty on the trebles. The Blue Pups break-up just a bit later and have a more pleasant rounder top-end (a cross between the Celestion Alnico Blue and a Celestion ceramic Greenback). If I was recommending for your amp, the Blue Pup would be it.

In a Princeton Reverb? The reviews say yes, but I'm on the fence and need some convincing.

[andrewsrea]

the weber is high on my list.

Weber's are great. I have a 4x10 Marshal cab (1965A) with (2) Weber Alnico 10F125 15w and (2) Weber Alnico Blue Pup 20w. The former is the late 50's tweed sound and they breakup quick but are a bit fizzy/ratty on the trebles. The Blue Pups break-up just a bit later and have a more pleasant rounder top-end (a cross between the Celestion Alnico Blue and a Celestion ceramic Greenback). If I was recommending for your amp, the Blue Pup would be it.

In a Princeton Reverb? The reviews say yes, but I'm on the fence and need some convincing.

I completely understand. Going through that with one of my amps right now.

Youtube only gets you 60% there, because of its processing on audio and how the video was put together. Hope you land on what you are after!

[tlarson58]

Incoming. Stay tuned...

[tonebender]

I had beam blockers on my Dr Z 2x10 combo but honestly they did not help me. It may have helped the audience.

[tlarson58]

I had beam blockers on my Dr Z 2x10 combo but honestly they did not help me. It may have helped the audience.

beam-blocker-video.jpg

I'll try them. Kinda looks like one of those golf teaching devices.

[archetype]

https://wgsusa.com/g10c#reviews

Less efficient, reviews look good for that style amp.

This one also, less efficient, getting good reviews too.
https://wgsusa.com/vet10#reviews

Still not sure if lower efficiency = earlier break-up. Very intriguing speakers. I am doing some research. Not to be a snob, but do I want to put a $60 speaker into a $1100 amp?

Lower efficiency has no relationship with breakup. Efficiency is mostly in the motor: the coil and magnet. Breakup is mostly in the cone design.

The cost of the speaker has no relationship with the cost of the amp. I have a '62 Fender Tremolux amp and last year bought a pair of $65 Signature 10AS speakers for it just for their low efficiency.

[mickey]

Efficiency has no relationship to speaker breakup. Methinks you are wanting to compare apples & oranges.

[golem]

I was under the impression that efficiency was mostly connected to how loud it gets for the amount of power you put it. I like low efficiency speakers because I'm a hobbyist and controlling amp volumes. I tend to go with speakers that don't break up easily as I find them more versatile. When I had speaker breakup to the equation I find it harder to control and don't find it plays well with all pedals. I don't really think there's a right or wrong answer though generally. I've genuinely liked some tones from speakers that break up earlier.

[tonebender]

Many years ago back when I was young and good looking, I had a home stereo I had purchased through the military exchange overseas. It was awesome. I had four speakers. Two Bose 601s and two Kenwood 777s. When I played them together the Kenwoods were much louder and would drown out the Bose. Both sounded incredible but they did not work together. I always assumed it was because the Kenwood speakers were more efficient. I could be wrong, I usually am.