Writing Tunes - Changing Key Within a Song

[Manco53]

Well I guess this is why I don’t write music with other people.....lol

I sat down with a buddy last night and we have been talking about getting an old project resurrected but with a different feel. I was into it and receptive because I like to play and write songs. I will also be attempting my best to do vocals.

He sent me some tracks he had been working on. Kind of hard to decipher stuff over phone recordings, I figured I’d give it a college try once we got together.

Man....the dude is a fast picker but holy hell his tunes change key all over the place, from part to part. It’s tough to get through because there’s truly no musical logic to it, aside from just being notes on a fretboard. It’s not cacophonous nor is there any tension that resolves. There’s no actual use of chord structure to determine where to go or where you’re coming from. I’m struggling here and may need to bow out.

I picked apart his tune last night and I don’t feel bad, I just feel like it might not work, and being a pretty easygoing fella, I sometimes have a hard time saying no. When I asked him what the theory or logic was behind changing scales/key so much within the song he simply replied, “I just like to do that.” I tried to rework his tune where it would make sense musically but I don’t think he wants to budge.

This is an evolving situation and I plan on taking his tune and working on it myself to try to make it more musical, but if he won’t budge I intend to walk away. Has anyone else had similar experiences?

For some reason as I type this I’ve had a major case of deja vu/acid flashback. Weird....

[zisme]

hmm. as someone who is self-taught and has no knowledge of theory, i have had similar challenges writing in different band situations. my hiccups have usually been related to time signature changes rather than key changes.

what's most important with many collaborative projects is the participants' willingness to communicate and work with each other to reach a middle ground. if he is not open to your suggestions and is unwilling to make adjustments to his style for the greater good of the project, then i don't see it working out in the long run. you will inevitably have to compromise as well - you just have to set your parameters and make them clear to your friend

good luck!

[Manco53]

All great points. Melodically I’m not sure I can handle the “randomness” of the notes.

[nomadh]

You can take it as a challenge and see where it goes or you'll have to bow out. Even if its great, not if you don't feel it.
Check out beato what makes this song great for jonie mitchell amelia. She had key changes and rick is so enthusiastic. I did like it more after rick explained it. Maybe it'll reach for you.

[jhull54]

In my opinion, musicians and songwriters are two different things. It's possible to be both at the same time. And just as valid to be one to the exclusion of the other.

Either way, a song has to resolve and *do something* in my opinion. Otherwise, it's not a song. It may be music, and that's just as valid, but it's not a song.

I don't have any advice for you. I don't think I could deal in your situation!

[Bubba Zanetti]

That would drive me insane. IMHO, structure and theme with sensical chord progressions are most important. Now, you can have progressive, experimental music with abrupt time changes and chord progressions, when done “correctly”, which is fine, but constant chord changes with no rhyme or reason doesn’t sound too appealing to me. Tell him that while you respect his take on his music, it’s just not an idea you’re comfortable with.

[tonebender]

There are lot of great songs that modulate up, "usually" a half step. Most in my memory banks are of the country genre but Surrender is one rock tune I can recall that goes up a half step about 2/3's through the song. I have never heard of multiple key changes but it sounds interesting.

[mickey]

There are lot of great songs that modulate up, "usually" a half step. Most in my memory banks are of the country genre but Surrender is one rock tune I can recall that goes up a half step about 2/3's through the song. I have never heard of multiple key changes but it sounds interesting.

I remember a live show of some sort (Telethon for something I think) and some famous male singer walked on during Loretta Lynn's number.
They wanted to sing a tune together but she sang it in "F and he sang it in B flat or some such. So Loretta turned around to the band (which was NOT
her band but the one the Telethon provided) and she says: "No problem, when I sing play in F when he sings play in B flat."

Such is the life of a Nashville session player.

If anyone remembers Duane Eddy's old "Rebel Rouser" It starts in E and walks its way to F then F# then G.

[Manco53]

You can take it as a challenge and see where it goes or you'll have to bow out. Even if its great, not if you don't feel it.
Check out beato what makes this song great for jonie mitchell amelia. She had key changes and rick is so enthusiastic. I did like it more after rick explained it. Maybe it'll reach for you.

Beato is the man! I’ll def check that out.

On another note, we jammed with the whole band Sunday night. I kept messing with the tune a bit more and found some interesting chords to put together.

[Manco53]

Great video. Joni Mitchell kicks ass.

The interesting thing about the tune I’m working on with my guitar player, aside from the changes, is it is great to work with another guitar player and try to take, essentially an arranged guitar part that someone else wrote and understand what is supposed to be the rhythm parts and harmony parts, without having all of those things written. And not just playing power chords. I hate power chords. So a lot of times I try to play complementary chords to what I’m given, i.e. sometimes I’ll play the fifth if he’s playing an octave chord, to round it out. Just as an example. I’m not trying to double guitar parts. That’s lame.

Either way, I’m getting more comfortable with the tune he wrote and I found some really cool chord shapes to complement the parts he wrote, I’m a bit more into it now. The tune doesn’t exactly flow from part to part yet, but I guess that’s what the drummer is for. Usually when I write songs I try to understand how the changes work and if it’s an abrupt change I’ll have an idea on drums for what needs to happen. Perhaps with more time it it will stick together more.

[stevebway]

Modulation can be effective to really propel a song emotionally used in the appropriate place. If it's random , it's a gimmick and confusing to the listener.

[Manco53]

Well have at it folks....All critiques welcome!

Uploaded our shitty, iPhone recordings to soundcloud. It might be barely listenable. And this is the first times we’ve ever played these tunes.

There’s definitely no Joni Mitchell in this stuff lol

https://soundcloud.com/manco53/butchers-knife-live

https://soundcloud.com/manco53/drone

[zisme]

Well have at it folks....All critiques welcome!

Uploaded our shitty, iPhone recordings to soundcloud. It might be barely listenable. And this is the first times we’ve ever played these tunes.

There’s definitely no Joni Mitchell in this stuff lol

https://soundcloud.com/manco53/butchers-knife-live

https://soundcloud.com/manco53/drone

I enjoyed both of those! Very At the Drive-In/post-hardcore sounding (esp. "Drone"). I felt like they flowed well musically. Nothing too jarring or meandering IMO.

[Manco53]

Well have at it folks....All critiques welcome!

Uploaded our shitty, iPhone recordings to soundcloud. It might be barely listenable. And this is the first times we’ve ever played these tunes.

There’s definitely no Joni Mitchell in this stuff lol

https://soundcloud.com/manco53/butchers-knife-live

https://soundcloud.com/manco53/drone

I enjoyed both of those! Very At the Drive-In/post-hardcore sounding (esp. "Drone"). I felt like they flowed well musically. Nothing too jarring or meandering IMO.

Thanks [mention]zisme[/mention] !

I’m not familiar with At the Drive-In’s tunes, though I’ve def heard of them. I think our other guitarist is into some of that stuff. Would Thrice be post hardcore? He likes those dudes a lot.

Ironically, Drone is the tune I wrote lol. I’ve been mostly on a Baroness kick and I think was inspired by some of their stuff, even though I’m not even half as good as those guys/gals.

[zisme]

Thanks @zisme !

I’m not familiar with At the Drive-In’s tunes, though I’ve def heard of them. I think our other guitarist is into some of that stuff. Would Thrice be post hardcore? He likes those dudes a lot.

Ironically, Drone is the tune I wrote lol. I’ve been mostly on a Baroness kick and I think was inspired by some of their stuff, even though I’m not even half as good as those guys/gals.

Yeah I would throw Thrice in that category, especially their earlier stuff. Love me some Baroness as well!

[fullonshred]

Forgive my lead ear and ignorance. What are the different Keys used in the first song? I did follow a lot of changes in tempo and dynamics, but am not good enough to follow the Key changes.

[fatjack]

Well it's along the lines of what I enjoyed in my late teens . Not bad , in fact if you're into that genre I'd say it's good. And it could help expand your comfort zone and help with better communication in the band.

[Manco53]

Forgive my lead ear and ignorance. What are the different Keys used in the first song? I did follow a lot of changes in tempo and dynamics, but am not good enough to follow the Key changes.

The first tune, effectively titled “the butcher’s knife cares not for the lamb’s cry” was written by our other guitar player and is in drop D tuning.

First section is effectively in a D mixolydian (major feel) starting on E and uses the notes E, F#, G and B, C.

The next two section goes to D Aeolian (D minor) D, E, F, G

Third section modulates to almost a D#/Eb major, but shares the notes of D locrian and the chord progression goes: D - C - F - Eb Bb

The next section is the chorus which is effectively in A Aeolian (minor) and the chords are F - G - A - D

The bridge where it cleans up goes back to D and is F - G - D - D

The other tune, Drone, is essentially in E aeolian with the exception when we get to the B chord it’s a major third instead of minor which actually gives the progression a harmonic minor kind of feel.

[Manco53]

Actually chorus would be better written is in F major or the relative major to D minor