Hello fellas!
I have been selected to purchase a live Sound rig, soup to nuts, for a stage production.
I have a general idea of what I need, but I am definitely not an expert here, so I need some feedback and advice. I'm not really familiar with how all these things work together, and I am sure I am forgetting some things.
Here's what I need to do:
We will have about 8 wireless lavaliere mics on singers/actors, and possibly an iPad or cell phone for pre recorded music as input sources.
I figure those sources need to go into a mixer.
I need the sound to go out to 4 pa speakers facing the audience (2 near the sides of the stage, and 2 farther out.into the audience - we will be outdoors), and one more stage monitor speaker. Will I need to put a power amp between the mixer and the pa speakers in order to push sound out to that many speakers?
I know I will need stands for the pa speakers and xlr cables to get from the mixer to the speakers. Will the mixer have enough outputs to go to 5 speakers (are those called mains?) or will I need some kind of splitter and possibly an amp to split 1 signal into 5 identical signals?
Please educate me. Please talk to me about ohms, watts, amps, and other electrical terms that I do not understand and could cause things to blow up. I know just enough to be dangerous, but not enough to be competent.
Can you give me a signal chain of parts I will need?
Thanks in advance.
Live Sound Help Please
What's the size of the stage? What's the size of the expected audience? My first impulse is to say get yourself a powered mixer. It'll have everything you need. Power amp, monitor amp, crossover, external audio inputs. It can feed several mains/monitors. It's been a while since I ran sound as a part-time occupation, so I can't recommend any particular current products, but back in the day, I would often use the older version of a unit similar to this for smaller, lower volume gigs:Buddy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:00 pm Hello fellas!
I have been selected to purchase a live Sound rig, soup to nuts, for a stage production.
I have a general idea of what I need, but I am definitely not an expert here, so I need some feedback and advice. I'm not really familiar with how all these things work together, and I am sure I am forgetting some things.
Here's what I need to do:
We will have about 8 wireless lavaliere mics on singers/actors, and possibly an iPad or cell phone for pre recorded music as input sources.
I figure those sources need to go into a mixer.
I need the sound to go out to 4 pa speakers facing the audience (2 near the sides of the stage, and 2 farther out.into the audience - we will be outdoors), and one more stage monitor speaker. Will I need to put a power amp between the mixer and the pa speakers in order to push sound out to that many speakers?
I know I will need stands for the pa speakers and xlr cables to get from the mixer to the speakers. Will the mixer have enough outputs to go to 5 speakers (are those called mains?) or will I need some kind of splitter and possibly an amp to split 1 signal into 5 identical signals?
Please educate me. Please talk to me about ohms, watts, amps, and other electrical terms that I do not understand and could cause things to blow up. I know just enough to be dangerous, but not enough to be competent.
Can you give me a signal chain of parts I will need?
Thanks in advance.
https://www.zzounds.com/item--PEVXRS
This puts out 1,000 watts continuous, but you have to share some of that with the monitors. Looks like it has 6 speaker outs. I don't know if this unit is any good, or if it's a piece of crap, but the ones Peavey made back in the day were very good (everything that Peavey made back in the day was very good). A powered mixer like this could be your all-in-one solution. Simple to set up, and inexpensive. But do more research than I did. I just did an image search for "powered mixer" just so you could see an example of one.
Of course, that's if your needs are what I'm assuming they are.
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Thank you for the help! The stage will he about 10 X 20, outdoors, and we used to get between 500 to 600 people indoors, so I would expect less than that for outdoors. Probably about half.
In my head, I have wireless lavaliere mics, with their receivers going into a mixer, then out to 4, two way, 12 inch PA speakers on stands. I would want 2 of the speakers by the sides of the stage and 2 more about Midway through the crowd. People will have to be spread out, so the square feet of the audience chairs will be inflated more than usual. I also want 2, two way, 10 inch PA speakers on the stage as monitors for the actors.
So, I need:
Lav mics, short xlrs to connect the receivers to the mixer, a mixer, long xlrs to connect the mixer outs to the pa speakers, and stands for the 4 speakers.
Also, since I'm brainstorming and trying to create my shopping list, I'll need plenty of fresh batteries for the lav belt packs.
Do you have any experience with lav mics? My only experience with them so far has been negative, having to raise the levels so high to pick up the voice that I was having feedback problems. I believe the mics were picking up the amplified sound just as much as the actors voices. I wound up having to use cloth tape to secure the mic on the actors cheek so that it was close enough their mouth to grab that sound without the background sound. The actors weren't happy, but it did work. I felt bad. Anyway, those were older, cheap units. I'm hoping these new ones will perform better than the ones we used in the past. Although what I am describing was definitely a horror show, we did get through it. I'm surprised they asked me to do it again, but I guess my get it done by any means necessary attitude carried me far. I'm not being paid anything for any of this (and rightly so). We are just a rag tag bunch figuring it all out as we go along. It's fun, I'm happy to be part of it, and I'm learning a lot as we go along. We all are.
In my head, I have wireless lavaliere mics, with their receivers going into a mixer, then out to 4, two way, 12 inch PA speakers on stands. I would want 2 of the speakers by the sides of the stage and 2 more about Midway through the crowd. People will have to be spread out, so the square feet of the audience chairs will be inflated more than usual. I also want 2, two way, 10 inch PA speakers on the stage as monitors for the actors.
So, I need:
Lav mics, short xlrs to connect the receivers to the mixer, a mixer, long xlrs to connect the mixer outs to the pa speakers, and stands for the 4 speakers.
Also, since I'm brainstorming and trying to create my shopping list, I'll need plenty of fresh batteries for the lav belt packs.
Do you have any experience with lav mics? My only experience with them so far has been negative, having to raise the levels so high to pick up the voice that I was having feedback problems. I believe the mics were picking up the amplified sound just as much as the actors voices. I wound up having to use cloth tape to secure the mic on the actors cheek so that it was close enough their mouth to grab that sound without the background sound. The actors weren't happy, but it did work. I felt bad. Anyway, those were older, cheap units. I'm hoping these new ones will perform better than the ones we used in the past. Although what I am describing was definitely a horror show, we did get through it. I'm surprised they asked me to do it again, but I guess my get it done by any means necessary attitude carried me far. I'm not being paid anything for any of this (and rightly so). We are just a rag tag bunch figuring it all out as we go along. It's fun, I'm happy to be part of it, and I'm learning a lot as we go along. We all are.
If I was a guitar I would have to be a polygamist.
4 pa speakers and 2 more used as monitors equals 6 outs. Is that going to be a problem? And do all the outs send exactly the same signal, or can I customize them, at least as far as volume? I don't think the stage monitors will need to be as loud as those facing the audience.
If I was a guitar I would have to be a polygamist.
Sorry... And can I connect speaker to speaker, or is each speaker connected directly to the monitor?
The last set up we used was indoors, with a hard wired in house system. I didn't have to connect anything. All I had to do was plug into the house system and set volume levels. That part was super easy, but this time I have to do all the connecting, and I don't want to waste these people's money by blowing stuff up, nor do I want to fry anything by asking it to push too much sound that it is not capable of pushing.
The last set up we used was indoors, with a hard wired in house system. I didn't have to connect anything. All I had to do was plug into the house system and set volume levels. That part was super easy, but this time I have to do all the connecting, and I don't want to waste these people's money by blowing stuff up, nor do I want to fry anything by asking it to push too much sound that it is not capable of pushing.
If I was a guitar I would have to be a polygamist.
I've watched a couple YouTube videos so far, so I'm trying to familiarize myself, but each situation is different and I have to figure out exactly what I need to make this situation happen.
Sorry for the multi replies. I just.post as I think of stuff.
Sorry for the multi replies. I just.post as I think of stuff.
If I was a guitar I would have to be a polygamist.
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BatUtilityBelt
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I've done a ton of composing and sound design for a good number of local theater companies, only one of which was outdoor, but that one had audiences of about 4,000. Luckily, I've never had to set up their systems from scratch, only had to match my work to their gear. I don't think it's for the feint of heart. If it was me, I would give them the numbers of several really good local sound techs and work with each of them on the specs. There is a lot to consider, starting with electrical. You have to make a good educated guess at the maximum power consumption of the sound system, then ensure you have one or more dedicated circuits for just sound to accommodate those. Otherwise lighting and other equipment will screw the sound. The venue size, shape, materials, and expected audience will weigh into that calculation, as will how you intend the sound to be distributed (power, number, and location of speakers). Your mixer should be decent quality supporting pro levels, but have way more channels than you think you will need. A decent theater system also uses compression and 31 band eq to improve audibility. Cheap wireless systems don't work for big distances. Mics usually need DI boxes to get great results with long cable runs. In short, it is harder than setting up for a band, and unlike a band, most of the users (actors) have no idea about the gear. Many engineers mic the stage instead of the actors, too, but that's a venue choice. It's often a combination of both.
Even though I've worked as a composer, performer, and sound designer for a good number of these venues, I have only worked on issues with the house gear whenever there were issues or if I was asked by the tech director. For this reason, I really can't get into brands and such, especially for an outdoor venue. The outdoor venue I worked 4 seasons with hired our area's best sound technician to handle these things, and I would say that was just appropriate for them to do so.
Even though I've worked as a composer, performer, and sound designer for a good number of these venues, I have only worked on issues with the house gear whenever there were issues or if I was asked by the tech director. For this reason, I really can't get into brands and such, especially for an outdoor venue. The outdoor venue I worked 4 seasons with hired our area's best sound technician to handle these things, and I would say that was just appropriate for them to do so.
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nomadh
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This sounds like you may be looking for something a bit bigger than most all in 1 powered pa. That peavey with 6 outputs might work well but I always go used. There is so much decent equip out there cheap but then you need to make do w what's available. The 4 mains is a great way to go as opposed to sonically kill the people up front and everyone in back wondering if they're still playing. There is all kind of fancy but if you buy bargain used you need to make do.
Is 8 inputs enough? If not it may still save money to chain 2 powered pa using 1 as a line out.
I also see daisy chain 2 mains per side if 8 ohm speakers they will be 4 ohm per side. This is where you might need the 6 out peavey unless you find one where an output channel can get to 2 ohm. Add in the problems of a potential mistake blowing something up. I wonder about leaning to an unpowered mixer and stack power amps. Sometimes you can get a good used setup like this also at a decent price.
And we didnt even get to the monitors yet
So @BatUtilityBelt is the most correct but also very expensive. I'm thinking 20 to 50 grand vs 3k. I'm a 1/10 the price kinda guy otherwise I'm out.
Is 8 inputs enough? If not it may still save money to chain 2 powered pa using 1 as a line out.
I also see daisy chain 2 mains per side if 8 ohm speakers they will be 4 ohm per side. This is where you might need the 6 out peavey unless you find one where an output channel can get to 2 ohm. Add in the problems of a potential mistake blowing something up. I wonder about leaning to an unpowered mixer and stack power amps. Sometimes you can get a good used setup like this also at a decent price.
And we didnt even get to the monitors yet
So @BatUtilityBelt is the most correct but also very expensive. I'm thinking 20 to 50 grand vs 3k. I'm a 1/10 the price kinda guy otherwise I'm out.
Yeah, I thought it was strange that you wanted to use lav mics. They can be a nightmare unless you get a really good (i.e.: expensive) system. Also, outdoors they can pick up the wind like crazy. Not to mention noise from the mic rubbing against clothing, etc. I agree with @BatUtilityBelt in that you're better off micing the stage.
You'll be able to control the monitors separately from the mains, and no, they won't need to be as loud, but I think you'll need more than 2 for a 20' stage. And don't get too hung up on the specs of that powered mixer in my last post. That was just meant as an example of what I was talking about, not a recommendation. Whatever you get, it should have more than what you think you'll need (wattage, I/O, etc.).
I don't think you'll blow anything up as long as you observe maximum power ratings and speaker resistance.
I can't help you with power requirements, as all of the venues I worked either had their own sound system in place already, or was capable of providing power for the gear we brought in, so I never had to have that conversation. Likewise, I'm a little iffy about wattage recommendations, as I've never set up a system for an outdoor venue, and I can only think in terms of band amplification, not a theater production. For a small group of about 300, as you estimate, and the type of production it is, I would guess that a 1,000 watt power amp would be sufficient, but that would only be a guess.
You'll be able to control the monitors separately from the mains, and no, they won't need to be as loud, but I think you'll need more than 2 for a 20' stage. And don't get too hung up on the specs of that powered mixer in my last post. That was just meant as an example of what I was talking about, not a recommendation. Whatever you get, it should have more than what you think you'll need (wattage, I/O, etc.).
I don't think you'll blow anything up as long as you observe maximum power ratings and speaker resistance.
I can't help you with power requirements, as all of the venues I worked either had their own sound system in place already, or was capable of providing power for the gear we brought in, so I never had to have that conversation. Likewise, I'm a little iffy about wattage recommendations, as I've never set up a system for an outdoor venue, and I can only think in terms of band amplification, not a theater production. For a small group of about 300, as you estimate, and the type of production it is, I would guess that a 1,000 watt power amp would be sufficient, but that would only be a guess.
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BatUtilityBelt
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If there is a good gear rental company in your area, and you can experiment at the location, it would be worth talking to them and renting at least the amplifiers and speakers you intend to consider. You would get a feel for how over/under-powered your expectations are. Also, I forgot to mention that at the (sound sucking) scale of an outdoor venue, some power conditioning is also a must. And I also forgot to mention you have to plan for weather impacts too. When you have to perform in wind and rain, you gain an appreciation for every consideration.
Thank you, Moss, Bat, and Nomadh for your detailed and thoughtful replies. I really appreciate the time you took to help me out.
I have probably bitten off more than I can chew, but that's normal. Haha. Actually, I didn't even bite it off. I was given this big wad and asked to chew it. Which I will, happily. It's an adventure. This scenario is like asking a guy at the paint factory to paint a masterpiece. "Well... You know about paint, dontcha? So go paint the roof of this chapel. What could be so hard?". Lol.
Actually, I love this kind of stuff, and I learn best by doing hands on, so.... What could possibly go wrong? Hahaha. I'm literally laughing out loud.
I'm taking all the info here under advisement, and as I try to put this together and hit inevitable bumps in the road along the way, this thread will become my trouble shooting and advice guide. I have a couple months to get everything ironed out. We probably won't be doing anything until March/April, when the weather breaks again here in Jersey, so I have good lead time and I will definitely be doing dry runs and tinkering with set up and equipment variations as time goes by.
Hopefully I'll be able to post some video of the finished product. Oh yeah, I'm the video guy, too. Hahaha! I need more arms. But I love all of it!
Sincere thanks again for taking the time to help. I really need it, and I really appreciate it, and if you think of anything else, please add to this thread!!
I have probably bitten off more than I can chew, but that's normal. Haha. Actually, I didn't even bite it off. I was given this big wad and asked to chew it. Which I will, happily. It's an adventure. This scenario is like asking a guy at the paint factory to paint a masterpiece. "Well... You know about paint, dontcha? So go paint the roof of this chapel. What could be so hard?". Lol.
Actually, I love this kind of stuff, and I learn best by doing hands on, so.... What could possibly go wrong? Hahaha. I'm literally laughing out loud.
I'm taking all the info here under advisement, and as I try to put this together and hit inevitable bumps in the road along the way, this thread will become my trouble shooting and advice guide. I have a couple months to get everything ironed out. We probably won't be doing anything until March/April, when the weather breaks again here in Jersey, so I have good lead time and I will definitely be doing dry runs and tinkering with set up and equipment variations as time goes by.
Hopefully I'll be able to post some video of the finished product. Oh yeah, I'm the video guy, too. Hahaha! I need more arms. But I love all of it!
Sincere thanks again for taking the time to help. I really need it, and I really appreciate it, and if you think of anything else, please add to this thread!!
If I was a guitar I would have to be a polygamist.
I'm definitely chewing on the idea of micing the stage. I think I like that idea.
How do I carry that out, practically? I wouldn't have any means of hanging microphones anywhere. Can I set up a few mics, in mic stands, a few feet apart from each other, and run those? That doesn't sound too practical, and it won't look normal. Is there a special type of mic that is used to cover big distances? In recording we always want off axis sound rejected. What do I look for when I actually want off axis sound? Is there a name for that type of mic? Would a normal boom type mic for video recording, with an XLR fitting work? Can I plug that into a board? I'd need several, I suppose?
How do I carry that out, practically? I wouldn't have any means of hanging microphones anywhere. Can I set up a few mics, in mic stands, a few feet apart from each other, and run those? That doesn't sound too practical, and it won't look normal. Is there a special type of mic that is used to cover big distances? In recording we always want off axis sound rejected. What do I look for when I actually want off axis sound? Is there a name for that type of mic? Would a normal boom type mic for video recording, with an XLR fitting work? Can I plug that into a board? I'd need several, I suppose?
If I was a guitar I would have to be a polygamist.
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BatUtilityBelt
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I would still try to use good wireless where you can, but there will probably be productions that have needs beyond whatever wireless system you go with, and I think getting full coverage is what the wired mics aid. They would also help with wireless failures. I have seen engineers mount mics on stands in front of the stage (at foot-level to the stage) as well as some on isolating pads right on the edge of the stage itself. Maybe half a dozen or so mics there. I can't tell you what the mic choices were, they were certainly not models I use for studio recording. I am sure they were unidirectional.
I would bet there are tons of good YouTube videos covering the topics you'll need pretty well, and as with any other discipline, you'll have to sort out which are better for your needs. There is also surely a forum or two out there for theater sound engineers, though I've never been on one. I would google for those and join if you find them.
I would bet there are tons of good YouTube videos covering the topics you'll need pretty well, and as with any other discipline, you'll have to sort out which are better for your needs. There is also surely a forum or two out there for theater sound engineers, though I've never been on one. I would google for those and join if you find them.
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redman
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In the original post you said you needed this for "a production" is it just 1 show if so it would probably be a ton cheaper to hire a sound company and let them handle everything. 2nd if you are going to do several of these shows and want to buy the gear I would get in touch with your local music stores most have someone on staff that are great with live sound and have a good track record with churches, auditoriums, clubs and such will happily help you design the rig to get the sell. The problem with info from a forum everyone has a different idea no one knows exactly what you want to do so you could end up with gear that is just not right. What you are describing sounds to me like it will total up to some major money. Just my 2 cents but most important GOOD LUCK.
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BatUtilityBelt
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@redman makes a good point there - I assumed you were building out for the production company, not just a single show. If it is just one production (or even a couple), it doesn't make sense at all to shop and buy.
I appreciate the added wisdom from everyone! Thank you!
There will be several shows, probably a total of 10 per year, or so. Renting equipment or hiring a company is not on the cards right now. These are school productions, but we take them very seriously. I'd like to think that we are the best in our entire city at putting on a show (I may be biased), and it's a fairly large city. I'll upload some video of one of our recent shows at some point. They are usually musicals, but no band or orchestra playing. The music is usually the accompaniment from the Broadway shows via cd, and the actors sing along to the instrumental tracks. Full costumes, full scenery, scene changes, stage crew, lights, sound, makeup, the whole thing. Mini Broadway. Our auditorium holds 600, and we used to have to turn people away. Those were the pre-covid days. Now we will have to move outside for the foreseeable future, and I don't know what to expect.
We have a sort of alcove area to set up a portable stage, which will be in sections. There are walls on 3 sides, with the back open, so I'm hoping those walls will help to contain some of the sound. Wind is what I'm most worried about right now, because the nature of that space is that wind really swirls around in there. I've seen plastic bags go corkscrewing straight up into the air, like they were in a mini tornado.
The school is buying the equipment, and it's my role to learn how to work it and set it all up, run the audio, and somehow get video too, which I am totally psyched to do. I'm just a little nervous about selecting the right pieces to have them all work together properly. I have time on my side, so there will definitely be some trial runs indoors to see if I can get it all sorted out and working. I'll be watching videos and asking for lots of advice along the way.
We are a really great team. We have creative people, talented people, patient people, and everyone has their own role. The one thing we all have in common is that we all bust our butts and we all love doing it. We get it done. Hours and hours of rehearsals go into these things, and although most of the audience are family members of the actors, I dare say that everyone goes home feeling very proud and feeling like a star. It's a really great experience, and I love helping that process happen from behind the scenes.
There will be several shows, probably a total of 10 per year, or so. Renting equipment or hiring a company is not on the cards right now. These are school productions, but we take them very seriously. I'd like to think that we are the best in our entire city at putting on a show (I may be biased), and it's a fairly large city. I'll upload some video of one of our recent shows at some point. They are usually musicals, but no band or orchestra playing. The music is usually the accompaniment from the Broadway shows via cd, and the actors sing along to the instrumental tracks. Full costumes, full scenery, scene changes, stage crew, lights, sound, makeup, the whole thing. Mini Broadway. Our auditorium holds 600, and we used to have to turn people away. Those were the pre-covid days. Now we will have to move outside for the foreseeable future, and I don't know what to expect.
We have a sort of alcove area to set up a portable stage, which will be in sections. There are walls on 3 sides, with the back open, so I'm hoping those walls will help to contain some of the sound. Wind is what I'm most worried about right now, because the nature of that space is that wind really swirls around in there. I've seen plastic bags go corkscrewing straight up into the air, like they were in a mini tornado.
The school is buying the equipment, and it's my role to learn how to work it and set it all up, run the audio, and somehow get video too, which I am totally psyched to do. I'm just a little nervous about selecting the right pieces to have them all work together properly. I have time on my side, so there will definitely be some trial runs indoors to see if I can get it all sorted out and working. I'll be watching videos and asking for lots of advice along the way.
We are a really great team. We have creative people, talented people, patient people, and everyone has their own role. The one thing we all have in common is that we all bust our butts and we all love doing it. We get it done. Hours and hours of rehearsals go into these things, and although most of the audience are family members of the actors, I dare say that everyone goes home feeling very proud and feeling like a star. It's a really great experience, and I love helping that process happen from behind the scenes.
If I was a guitar I would have to be a polygamist.
@buddy thanks for the additional info. For me it opens some other stuff up. Like have you looked into grants like "save the music"? How about contacting other schools or organizations in your state. When we built a Fine Arts Center, I worked IT at school district for 10 years, we visited about 5 other centers in state. How about contacting a theater production in state, for example we are annual subscribers to "Broadway in Tucson" that bring 5-7 National shows a year. They have good sound in house as well as some companies bring in their own. Our Community College has people who could help so I would think you would have something similar. Also we know the local radio folks who came and helped with design.
I also know how school budgets work..... We just watched the video of our local Middle School talent show, cost us $10 (but we gave $20) because all our neighbors know we're soft for that stuff. Maybe a little fund raising for a rental trial run to listen and take notes. The equipment could be used for Graduations, so maybe the High School sub-general fund could allocate some money.
Just a bunch of thoughts. I also have a deep backup idea.
I also know how school budgets work..... We just watched the video of our local Middle School talent show, cost us $10 (but we gave $20) because all our neighbors know we're soft for that stuff. Maybe a little fund raising for a rental trial run to listen and take notes. The equipment could be used for Graduations, so maybe the High School sub-general fund could allocate some money.
Just a bunch of thoughts. I also have a deep backup idea.