Ok guys, it's been several months since I've been around. Every time I come here I get too excited and want to spend money, and usually buy another guitar or two. Like last summer when I bought a used Agile Valkyrie Prestige and a new AD-3200MCC.
I'm looking to turn the Valkyrie into an SG type rock machine, and figured I'd ask the experts. What upgrades do I need to make on it? I don't want to get too expensive, but I got it for under $300, so I can play around a little bit. As an SG type guitar, I'd love it to sound dark and heavy. If it ended up sounding like the SG's used by Black Sabbath during the Dio albums, I'd be Ok with that!
For those that aren't familiar with it, this is what I'm starting with:
https://www.rondomusic.com/valkiiipresblue.html
I don't think that the pickups are what are listed (big surprise here, I know). The stock pickups measure 8.6kOhms and 7.8kOhms bridge/neck. I'm looking to have some SD Black Winters installed. I know that there's a fan of these with the Gibson SG Gothic here on the board, and I think that's a good match to start. I'm open to other pickup suggestions as well.
Does anyone think the pots and/or wiring need to be changed while I'm doing the pickups?
Does anyone think I need to upgrade the hardware, like tuners, nut, bridge, or saddles? The bridge is thinner than some of my other Agiles. Any thoughts on those pieces?
Also, if anyone has one of these to Valkyries that they just don't love anymore, I'd be looking to talk about picking them off you or maybe even trading one of my Agiles for:
https://www.rondomusic.com/product763.html
https://www.rondomusic.com/valkhcslim.html
Well, anyone with suggestions, please fire away. Thanks!
Agile Project Guitar #1
I just now saw this thread. I've never had a problem with the Agile wiring harnesses but then none of mine get much of a workout. I always go with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". If you can get it properly set up, intonated and it stays in tune with the existing hardware then leave that alone too. I think it was around 2012/13 that the Agiles went over to Tusq nuts and saddles with the wide throw bridges but the older stuff seems to work just as well.
If you're just taking a shot on the Black Winters because you think maybe they'll get you the sound you're looking for and were planning on purchasing new, I'd suggest talking to either @Buddha Pickups or @andrewsrea as they can most likely wind you something better and closer to what you're after for no more...
If you're just taking a shot on the Black Winters because you think maybe they'll get you the sound you're looking for and were planning on purchasing new, I'd suggest talking to either @Buddha Pickups or @andrewsrea as they can most likely wind you something better and closer to what you're after for no more...
Delightful mix of insolence, arrogance and narcissism
Proud RINO trapped in a heavy metal chassis
Growing up, only kid in the neighborhood with an Uncle Ahkbar
Proud RINO trapped in a heavy metal chassis
Growing up, only kid in the neighborhood with an Uncle Ahkbar
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andrewsrea
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So I am going to 'unsell' myself a little here. 
#1 for Tony Iommi's tone for 70's to now, with a few exceptions, is a treble booster into a Laney Supergroup amp with a Laney 4x12 loaded with Celestion G12H speakers. If you are on a budget and have a nice pedal-friendly amp, the 'Sabracadabra' from Catlinbread pedals will get you there.
The #2 secret to most of Tony Iommi's SG's tone, is an unintended outcome of him getting the tips of his fret fingers cut off (don't replicate!). Which is: either Eb standard tuning with .008 to .032, or Db Standard w/ .009 - 042.
Next would be pickups:
- 70's Sabbath: P-90's (Alnico 5 magnets, 7.8K) or John Birch Simplux pickups which I hear were modified P-90s with 11 polepieces (strings sit in between the poles vs. aligned over the poles) and using ceramic magnets.
- The 'Heaven & Hell' SG had Birch 'Magnium' pickups. These were essentially Gibson / Epiphone Mini-humbucking pickups (PAF type) in a P-90 footprint, 22 pole pieces, 43 gauge coil wire wound medium (10K DCR to 12KDCR) with a ceramic magnet.
IMHO, SD Winters will be the wrong pickup for that tone. IMHO, most heavy tones sound best with lighter wound pickups and the 'hot' jobs are great for shredders (rapid single notes, pushing the amp).
Most Agile Valks I remember had ceramic pickups around the specs you noted, which are kind of in between the 70's and 80's era Sabbath. So, my recommendation for you would be 1.) try the tuning and string gauge first, 2.) approximate the rig, 3.) try 50's wiring (below) and move on to pickups if that doesn't do it for you. Tim at @Buddha Pickups or I can build to spec a premium pickup for less than the big brands.
50's wiring for SG:
- Potentiometers lug numbers as you are looking from the back (vs. shaft) side, left to right: 3-2-1.
- Volume Pot: Lug #1 to ground (back shell of pot). Lug #3 to pickup 'hot'. Lug #2 to tone pot (using a capacitor explained next) & selector switch. Pickup 'ground' to the back shell of the pot.
- Tone pot: Lug #1 - attach a mylar-film capacitor from Lug #2 of the volume pot (bridge = 0.022uF | neck = 0.015uF). Lug #2 to ground (back shell of pot). #3 - no connection.
- Ensure a ground wire connects all pot shells to the ground of the jack.
If you have neck-dive, go with a set of Grover Keystones or Kluson's with plastic keys. Otherwise tuners, nuts and other stuff you mentioned are great.
Hope this helps!
#1 for Tony Iommi's tone for 70's to now, with a few exceptions, is a treble booster into a Laney Supergroup amp with a Laney 4x12 loaded with Celestion G12H speakers. If you are on a budget and have a nice pedal-friendly amp, the 'Sabracadabra' from Catlinbread pedals will get you there.
The #2 secret to most of Tony Iommi's SG's tone, is an unintended outcome of him getting the tips of his fret fingers cut off (don't replicate!). Which is: either Eb standard tuning with .008 to .032, or Db Standard w/ .009 - 042.
Next would be pickups:
- 70's Sabbath: P-90's (Alnico 5 magnets, 7.8K) or John Birch Simplux pickups which I hear were modified P-90s with 11 polepieces (strings sit in between the poles vs. aligned over the poles) and using ceramic magnets.
- The 'Heaven & Hell' SG had Birch 'Magnium' pickups. These were essentially Gibson / Epiphone Mini-humbucking pickups (PAF type) in a P-90 footprint, 22 pole pieces, 43 gauge coil wire wound medium (10K DCR to 12KDCR) with a ceramic magnet.
IMHO, SD Winters will be the wrong pickup for that tone. IMHO, most heavy tones sound best with lighter wound pickups and the 'hot' jobs are great for shredders (rapid single notes, pushing the amp).
Most Agile Valks I remember had ceramic pickups around the specs you noted, which are kind of in between the 70's and 80's era Sabbath. So, my recommendation for you would be 1.) try the tuning and string gauge first, 2.) approximate the rig, 3.) try 50's wiring (below) and move on to pickups if that doesn't do it for you. Tim at @Buddha Pickups or I can build to spec a premium pickup for less than the big brands.
50's wiring for SG:
- Potentiometers lug numbers as you are looking from the back (vs. shaft) side, left to right: 3-2-1.
- Volume Pot: Lug #1 to ground (back shell of pot). Lug #3 to pickup 'hot'. Lug #2 to tone pot (using a capacitor explained next) & selector switch. Pickup 'ground' to the back shell of the pot.
- Tone pot: Lug #1 - attach a mylar-film capacitor from Lug #2 of the volume pot (bridge = 0.022uF | neck = 0.015uF). Lug #2 to ground (back shell of pot). #3 - no connection.
- Ensure a ground wire connects all pot shells to the ground of the jack.
If you have neck-dive, go with a set of Grover Keystones or Kluson's with plastic keys. Otherwise tuners, nuts and other stuff you mentioned are great.
Hope this helps!
Live life to the fullest! - Rob
Tobijohn and andrewsrea, huge thanks!
I was looking at these pickups, the Birch Magnum andrewsrea mentioned, for another guitar. They spec out at 15k ohms with the 22 screws/poles you mentioned, but they are now A5 magnets. That's why I haven't pulled the trigger on the Birch pickups. The Gibson Iommi pickups are 15-16k ohm, but say they are ceramic/A2 combination.
There's another site, Jay Dee, that has ceramic pickups that are claimed to be what Iommi used on the Heaven & Hell record that clock in at 24k ohms and are ceramic.
How the heck is anyone supposed to know what's what lol!
I've heard an SG with Black Winters and listened to the sound clip on the SD website, and they were unique. Dark. You're probably right, not the sound I described looking for, but heavy nonetheless.
Starting with the rest of the setup probably makes the most sense. I have a Peavy JSX head and am looking to get a Katana head. I have a Marshall MF400a with Celestion G12K-100s. I have a Zoom G5 so, I think I can get the amp/effects to approximate, but probably need to look at the speakers in the cabinet.
I'm looking to go down to 8-38 or 8-40 strings on this one, but did I see you type 8-32 strings? That's crazy light on the low end!
Probably the only modification I'll start with is the tuners. I think it does have some neck dive. 50's wiring would be next, and seems one of the easier modifications to do.
andewsrea, I'll pm you once I figure out if I need pickups. Any additional comments on the Birch/Jay Dee pickups vs. the Gibson Iommi would be of interest.
Thanks again guys!
I was looking at these pickups, the Birch Magnum andrewsrea mentioned, for another guitar. They spec out at 15k ohms with the 22 screws/poles you mentioned, but they are now A5 magnets. That's why I haven't pulled the trigger on the Birch pickups. The Gibson Iommi pickups are 15-16k ohm, but say they are ceramic/A2 combination.
How the heck is anyone supposed to know what's what lol!
I've heard an SG with Black Winters and listened to the sound clip on the SD website, and they were unique. Dark. You're probably right, not the sound I described looking for, but heavy nonetheless.
Starting with the rest of the setup probably makes the most sense. I have a Peavy JSX head and am looking to get a Katana head. I have a Marshall MF400a with Celestion G12K-100s. I have a Zoom G5 so, I think I can get the amp/effects to approximate, but probably need to look at the speakers in the cabinet.
I'm looking to go down to 8-38 or 8-40 strings on this one, but did I see you type 8-32 strings? That's crazy light on the low end!
Probably the only modification I'll start with is the tuners. I think it does have some neck dive. 50's wiring would be next, and seems one of the easier modifications to do.
andewsrea, I'll pm you once I figure out if I need pickups. Any additional comments on the Birch/Jay Dee pickups vs. the Gibson Iommi would be of interest.
Thanks again guys!
FYI, someone here recently had a less than perfect experience with that winder:
http://aguitarforum.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 7ce#p28543
http://aguitarforum.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 7ce#p28543
Delightful mix of insolence, arrogance and narcissism
Proud RINO trapped in a heavy metal chassis
Growing up, only kid in the neighborhood with an Uncle Ahkbar
Proud RINO trapped in a heavy metal chassis
Growing up, only kid in the neighborhood with an Uncle Ahkbar
-
andrewsrea
- Reactions:
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 4:43 pm
- Location: Lake Saint Louis, MO
- Gearlist: 28 Guitars: (2) basses, (2) acoustics, (3) hollow bodies, (3) Semi hollow, (1) Double-neck, (17) Solid-bodies
@tony1852 :
I think I remember hearing in a video interview with Iommi, that he bought singles and made his own custom 'set', early on to accommodate his fingers. Now his tech does it for him, which is not unusual. Stevie Ray Vaughn would play 11's to 13's, but gradually went with lighter strings than the set would dictate. I saw an interview where had his guitar on and said he was playing 11's - 42's that night. He said the lighter strings on the bottom so he could "do this", as he did his classic pull-up of the low 'E' and let it slam the guitar.
After you settle out on your guitar set up, you'll probably have to play around to get your amp and Zoom to get close. Iommi's amp rig did not change much over the years and has basically been a treble booster at like 1 o'clock into a non-master volume amp on '8' with the Treble and Mids round '7' and start with the bass at '0' and dial in the bass until it sounds right. Which means he was punishing the amp and speakers to their limits. He uses the volume on his guitar, but unless he is doing a volume swell, he is a '7' to '10' kind of guy.
With this set up, he is almost on the edge of 'fuzz.' I am thinking a Rat pedal with the gain at 'noon' emulation in the Zoom and the JSX might do it.
I think I remember hearing in a video interview with Iommi, that he bought singles and made his own custom 'set', early on to accommodate his fingers. Now his tech does it for him, which is not unusual. Stevie Ray Vaughn would play 11's to 13's, but gradually went with lighter strings than the set would dictate. I saw an interview where had his guitar on and said he was playing 11's - 42's that night. He said the lighter strings on the bottom so he could "do this", as he did his classic pull-up of the low 'E' and let it slam the guitar.
After you settle out on your guitar set up, you'll probably have to play around to get your amp and Zoom to get close. Iommi's amp rig did not change much over the years and has basically been a treble booster at like 1 o'clock into a non-master volume amp on '8' with the Treble and Mids round '7' and start with the bass at '0' and dial in the bass until it sounds right. Which means he was punishing the amp and speakers to their limits. He uses the volume on his guitar, but unless he is doing a volume swell, he is a '7' to '10' kind of guy.
With this set up, he is almost on the edge of 'fuzz.' I am thinking a Rat pedal with the gain at 'noon' emulation in the Zoom and the JSX might do it.
Live life to the fullest! - Rob