Researching Rifles

[Chocol8]

[Do you truly belive in the last 25 years there has not been an improvement in under and over penetration or velocity and FPS?
If it's not a CNS or major artery, then it is really about cavitation.

I think bullet and ammo companies have made significant improvements in performance in gelatin tests which result in great marketing photos and videos from professional and amateur reviewers. Basically, I think they are designing to the gelatin tests.

Real world performance on bad guys wearing a variety of clothing, hit at all sorts of angles etc? Yeah, no, I don’t think today’s ammo is significantly better than what we had in the mid ‘90’s. We already had decent performing JHP’s for some time by then, and Cor-bon and others were pushing +P+ velocity limits in factory loads. If you want to argue the ammo available in the 1960’s, maybe.

I also think the permanent wound channel is what matters at handgun velocities. Flesh is fairly elastic so if there isn’t a hole punched through something critical, a person is going to live for quite a while. With rifle bullets at Mach 3+ the temporary wound cavity and cavitation may play a bigger role.

[uwmcscott]

I also think the permanent wound channel is what matters at handgun velocities. Flesh is fairly elastic so if there isn’t a hole punched through something critical, a person is going to live for quite a while. With rifle bullets at Mach 3+ the temporary wound cavity and cavitation may play a bigger role.

I have never fired a weapon at a person, and hope I never have to. Your point does bring up the importance of shot placement, which I feel is by far the most critical factor. I have hunted deer for many years, mostly with a .270 Winchester bolt action rifle. I have hunted with 12 gauge shotguns, and also a 30-30, and I have hunted with friends and family using all different sorts of rifle calibers all the way up magnum cartridges. Taking a careful, unobstructed single shot at a deer broadside almost always literally drops them right then and there. The last deer I shot was at about 50 yards and it's heart was literally hamburger along with a good portion of the lungs - it never took a step. I have unfortunately also taken shots myself where the bullet was deflected or the animal moved and did not get that critical hit, and been around others who have done the same. A deer can literally walk away from such a shot, even multiples if they just go through a non-critical area. Certainly human anatomy is different, but I think the same concept applies. AKA - a 22lr through the heart is going to be a lot more lethal than a 44 mag through the elbow.

[ID10t]

[Do you truly belive in the last 25 years there has not been an improvement in under and over penetration or velocity and FPS?
If it's not a CNS or major artery, then it is really about cavitation.

I think bullet and ammo companies have made significant improvements in performance in gelatin tests which result in great marketing photos and videos from professional and amateur reviewers. Basically, I think they are designing to the gelatin tests.

Real world performance on bad guys wearing a variety of clothing, hit at all sorts of angles etc? Yeah, no, I don’t think today’s ammo is significantly better than what we had in the mid ‘90’s. We already had decent performing JHP’s for some time by then, and Cor-bon and others were pushing +P+ velocity limits in factory loads. If you want to argue the ammo available in the 1960’s, maybe.

I also think the permanent wound channel is what matters at handgun velocities. Flesh is fairly elastic so if there isn’t a hole punched through something critical, a person is going to live for quite a while. With rifle bullets at Mach 3+ the temporary wound cavity and cavitation may play a bigger role.

Where not disagreeing here, except maybe my sense of time. I have bullets that are over 25 years old, so the insta-face-twit-Mountain-cool kids bullets are not marketed to me.

I think the most important thing in this thread is what you can enjoy at the range, that is what the OP was aiming (did ya see what I did there?) for. I don't normally talk guns, I talk guitars, and I am years and years and years less qualified in that matter.
If a person wants 9mm carbine to take to the range, I have a contribution to the conversation.

[Chocol8]

So I did some quick research just for curiosity sake. In 1991 alone, we got Winchester Black Talons, Remington Golden Sabres, and Speer Gold Dots. The Talons are no longer black and are called SXT (Same eXact Things) for political correctness, but other than that all three and others from that period are IMHO essentially as good as anything introduced since then with only minor differences. At the time, the industry was reacting to the 1986 Miami shooting and the FBI’s new requirements that came from that debacle so there was a big leap forward in a compressed timeframe.

Back on topic. In normal times 9mm is a great choice for a plinking gun because it is cheap and plentiful, although .22 is cheaper and more plentiful. In not-normal times, like today, 9mm’s status as most popular defense caliber generally means it disappears off the shelves in a hurry. I wouldn’t want a 9 to be my only caliber, unless you already have a stockpile of ammo to get you through the crazy times.

[Spike]

Well I stopped by a local shop today to browse. Found the Ruger for $799 and a Kel Tec for $599. Never heard of Kel-Tech before. Anyone with experience with Kel Tec?

[uwmcscott]

Well I stopped by a local shop today to browse. Found the Ruger for $799 and a Kel Tec for $599. Never heard of Kel-Tech before. Anyone with experience with Kel Tec?

No Kel-Tec experience here but that price seems about $250 too high for the Ruger, you might want to check out some of the online retailers if you live somewhere that FFL shipping is allowed. Having said that, right now people are paying 3-5x normal pricing for ammunition so they can probably get that for the Ruger if it's in stock.

[Spike]

I found 9mm ammo here for $32.00/20 rounds. Seems way high but most likely the norm now. I heard that ammo backlog is at 9+ months now.

[uwmcscott]

I found 9mm ammo here for $32.00/20 rounds. Seems way high but most likely the norm now. I heard that ammo backlog is at 9+ months now.

Yep, although it's only the norm because people keep buying it no matter how high they price it It's really not so much a shortage as a hyper fueled demand spike. Production is slighly reduced due to raw material/component availability, but most manufacturers are running at maximum capacity or close to it. It's basically the same thing that happened with every other commodity people started hoarding during this mess.

[Spike]

[Spike]

Stopped by a small gun shop this morning to discuss rifle options and think I’ve landed on a 5.56.

Seems around here the 5.56 ammo is cheaper and a bit more abundant than a lot of other calibers.

[fatjack]

Never owned a kel-tec only knowlege is they made or make dirt cheap pocket pistols. Not saturday night specials but not much better.

[uwmcscott]

Stopped by a small gun shop this morning to discuss rifle options and think I’ve landed on a 5.56.

Seems around here the 5.56 ammo is cheaper and a bit more abundant than a lot of other calibers.

That's certainly the most common caliber in the AR world. Keep in mid you can also shoot .223 which is usually even cheaper than 5.56 ( same caliber, just lower cartridge pressure on the .223 ). Having said that it's probably not a good choice if you ever plan to use it for hunting medium-large size game like deer, etc.

Seems like the ammo "shortage" may have peaked...you can find plenty of ammo online right now, and the prices have even seemed to start inching back down from a few weeks ago - but they are still probably 2-4X more than they were a few months back. You could buy a 20 round box of .223 for 5 bucks earlier this year, now it's 3x that.

[nomadh]

Well I stopped by a local shop today to browse. Found the Ruger for $799 and a Kel Tec for $599. Never heard of Kel-Tech before. Anyone with experience with Kel Tec?

I have the keltec p11. 10+1 9mm poly gun. Very much an SX of guns. I had to polish all the insides to smooth it out and it had a huge difference. It's still an odd duck with a weird trigger pull but I got to where I like it. And I'm very accurate at 20 yards. They have other models like the 38T. And a whole chat group like here.
That price seems crazy but maybe in line for current times.

[nomadh]

Well I stopped by a local shop today to browse. Found the Ruger for $799 and a Kel Tec for $599. Never heard of Kel-Tech before. Anyone with experience with Kel Tec?

I have the keltec p11. 10+1 9mm poly gun. Very much an SX of guns. I had to polish all the insides to smooth it out and it had a huge difference. It's still an odd duck with a weird trigger pull but I got to where I like it. And I'm very accurate at 20 yards. They have other models like the 38T. And a whole chat group like here.
That price seems crazy but maybe in line for current times.

[nomadh]

I have a 30 06 m1 as my only rifle. Pretty much only good for taking out armored personnel cars. what rifle is a decent hunter/ defense that isnt too expensive to buy or feed? 556 or 223?

[uwmcscott]

I have a 30 06 m1 as my only rifle. Pretty much only good for taking out armored personnel cars. what rifle is a decent hunter/ defense that isnt too expensive to buy or feed? 556 or 223?

Actually, 30-06 is about the most common medium to large game caliber out there, and one of the least expensive ones too. Lugging an M1 around through the woods might not be a lot of fun, but a bolt-action 30-06 is the prototypical whitetail gun around here.

[nomadh]

I have a 30 06 m1 as my only rifle. Pretty much only good for taking out armored personnel cars. what rifle is a decent hunter/ defense that isnt too expensive to buy or feed? 556 or 223?

Actually, 30-06 is about the most common medium to large game caliber out there, and one of the least expensive ones too. Lugging an M1 around through the woods might not be a lot of fun, but a bolt-action 30-06 is the prototypical whitetail gun around here.

Is it really a cheaper bullet? At 1 time it was comparatively expensive I thought.
I'm not good enough to shoot at 200 yards and at close range that 30-06 was able to punch though 3/8" steel without even slowing down enough to bother sinking the target. I figured I save it for a herd of deer where it can take out 4 at a time

[uwmcscott]

Is it really a cheaper bullet? At 1 time it was comparatively expensive I thought.
I'm not good enough to shoot at 200 yards and at close range that 30-06 was able to punch though 3/8" steel without even slowing down enough to bother sinking the target. I figured I save it for a herd of deer where it can take out 4 at a time

Well, I don't think there's any "cheap" bullets anymore, but yes - 30-06 is probably the most common hunting cartridge out there for things like whitetail deer, and in comparison to other hunting calibers and because of that one of the least expensive per round. It was also one of the few calibers you could still find on the shelves here before hunting season started. Granted, within any particular caliber there is a wide range of pricing - from basic target/lead bullet grade all the way up to all kinds of engineered bullet types/shapes/materials - just like guitars But at least around here you could still pick up a box of 30-06 or .270 ( a very close cousin ) for under $20 bucks a box of 20 rounds. I am not sure that's "cheap" if you consider it's still about a buck every time you pull the trigger.

And regarding the power, actually 30-06 is on the low end of the spectrum when you look at some of the magnum and larger caliber stuff people hunt with, even for whitetail. .300 and 7mm magnum is quite common and there are a whole range of monster magnum cartridges above and beyond those too. It is certainly a very powerful round though - I deer hunt with a .270 which is very close in size, and you can easily drop a deer dead in its tracks at 100 yards or more with one shot.

[ID10t]

I'll jump back into this.
I am a fan of 5.56 but also 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 and and and.

So I have a friend who turned me onto his math and by gosh he is right. About 10 years ago ( please remember my sense of time is very fuzzy, so I cound be off by 5 years either direction) 5.45 x 39 was CHEAP. So much so that getting out the calculator and projected amount of shooting for dad, mom, 3 kids of and going into shooting age, it made mathmatical sense for him to buy a metric ton of the cheap ammo and a gun or 2 that shoots it, and it was the cost effective way to go.
That is why I have and keep a .40 S&W, it just isn't one of my main carry pistols, but I have enough ammo for it and come upon it enough, that it just makes sense to keep it. I like it, nothing against it, but if you belong to the school of fewer calibers to try to keep ammo for then it would be on my chopping block.
I am not a hunter, just never worked out, I was going to hunt deer once as an adult and got deployed again so now I have a .41 Magnum that never took a deer. I remember growing up my friends dad hunted, he probably shot 4 rifle bullets a year, don't know how many 12 gauge for rabbits but I don't imagine many.
I guess I'm saying that you can have multiple tools for multiple things, just like guitars.

[nomadh]

I'm probably still remembering back to the $89 chinese ak47 deals and for another $89 you could get a small coffin of ammo. I guess missing that deal my m1 will suit fine.
I have the same prob with guitars. I'm still looking for the beat up $300 gibson V I missed out on

[peskypesky]

If it's for zombies, shotguns are best.

bazooka

[nomadh]

I'll jump back into this.
I am a fan of 5.56 but also 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 and and and.

So I have a friend who turned me onto his math and by gosh he is right. About 10 years ago ( please remember my sense of time is very fuzzy, so I cound be off by 5 years either direction) 5.45 x 39 was CHEAP. So much so that getting out the calculator and projected amount of shooting for dad, mom, 3 kids of and going into shooting age, it made mathmatical sense for him to buy a metric ton of the cheap ammo and a gun or 2 that shoots it, and it was the cost effective way to go.
That is why I have and keep a .40 S&W, it just isn't one of my main carry pistols, but I have enough ammo for it and come upon it enough, that it just makes sense to keep it. I like it, nothing against it, but if you belong to the school of fewer calibers to try to keep ammo for then it would be on my chopping block.
I am not a hunter, just never worked out, I was going to hunt deer once as an adult and got deployed again so now I have a .41 Magnum that never took a deer. I remember growing up my friends dad hunted, he probably shot 4 rifle bullets a year, don't know how many 12 gauge for rabbits but I don't imagine many.
I guess I'm saying that you can have multiple tools for multiple things, just like guitars.

I think its well proven that the 40 is a great, big fat american stopping round. The 45 was just a bit too big, friend always called it the flying ashtray. The 10mm was considered to have too much recoil although mostly for women but still enough to effect shot placement. The 9 was considered only good for teens and 140 lb europeans. The 40 was designed to be the goldilocks round. Maybe I'm just parroting s&w marketing but I find lots of people agree. I rejected it because I already had a 9 and lots of ammo. My dad went 40 because by the time he got into it 40 was nearly equally available and priced. If I were starting out I'd probably go .40. I think 9 and 40 are pretty close to parity although 40 still has a bit of a premium just because it is a bit bigger, right? I think when you buy by the pound its very even?

[mozz]

Flying ashtray was a particular lead .45 bullet hollowpoint.
The joke used to be "why do you shoot a 45?" Answer is " because they don't make a 46"
I'll still take my .357 125gr jhp over anything, 5 or 6 rounds is fine. I do not take the spray and pray mentality of high capacity semi's. Actually i'd rather my single shot Contender for just about anything.

[ID10t]

I'll jump back into this.
I am a fan of 5.56 but also 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 and and and.

So I have a friend who turned me onto his math and by gosh he is right. About 10 years ago ( please remember my sense of time is very fuzzy, so I cound be off by 5 years either direction) 5.45 x 39 was CHEAP. So much so that getting out the calculator and projected amount of shooting for dad, mom, 3 kids of and going into shooting age, it made mathmatical sense for him to buy a metric ton of the cheap ammo and a gun or 2 that shoots it, and it was the cost effective way to go.
That is why I have and keep a .40 S&W, it just isn't one of my main carry pistols, but I have enough ammo for it and come upon it enough, that it just makes sense to keep it. I like it, nothing against it, but if you belong to the school of fewer calibers to try to keep ammo for then it would be on my chopping block.
I am not a hunter, just never worked out, I was going to hunt deer once as an adult and got deployed again so now I have a .41 Magnum that never took a deer. I remember growing up my friends dad hunted, he probably shot 4 rifle bullets a year, don't know how many 12 gauge for rabbits but I don't imagine many.
I guess I'm saying that you can have multiple tools for multiple things, just like guitars.

I think its well proven that the 40 is a great, big fat american stopping round. The 45 was just a bit too big, friend always called it the flying ashtray. The 10mm was considered to have too much recoil although mostly for women but still enough to effect shot placement. The 9 was considered only good for teens and 140 lb europeans. The 40 was designed to be the goldilocks round. Maybe I'm just parroting s&w marketing but I find lots of people agree. I rejected it because I already had a 9 and lots of ammo. My dad went 40 because by the time he got into it 40 was nearly equally available and priced. If I were starting out I'd probably go .40. I think 9 and 40 are pretty close to parity although 40 still has a bit of a premium just because it is a bit bigger, right? I think when you buy by the pound its very even?

Got every one of 'em and then some, just the way it worked out (never sold a gun). Primarily carry a 45 but sometimes a 9, basically it is based on what I am wearing. Like I said, I have some strange access to extra bullets that I just can't and won't explain. Said it before and yet again, the pistol is to give me a loud retreat to a rifle. At the range they are all fun (except the 8mm Mauser, and I have a convoluted AR-15 & cactus story, but it's still fun.,.,))

[LancerTheGreat]

You guys are just rubbing my nose in the fact I still need a good rifle after all of these years too lol.

I'd second the .357/.44mag recommendation though. Right now I've got a 12ga Mossberg Shockwave, 9mm CZ Rami, and a .357 Taurus revolver. I can usually find decent ammo for everything.

Planning on getting a full size .45 1911 sometime. I'd like to get a good lever action .357/.44/30-30, and not even a remote necessity, but I really want a lever action 45-70.

Oddly enough, I see a lot of .357sig in the stores around here, in fact I had a Walmart employee hand me a box of it by mistake, and then wouldn't swap it for the .357mag because I had touched the box already. So now I have a full box of ammo for a caliber of guns that I simply can't find lmao.