Yesterday I was talking with this young guy (early 20s) who plays drums in a few different bands and also dabbles with guitar. In the different bands he's in he plays everything from newer technical type metal to classic rock.
We hit on the topic of live mixing and the volume restraint that is necessary at most venues these days. I shared some stories about my own band's struggles in this area, and he told me about how his metal band achieve, mixes, and monitors their sound live. What he told me was kinda shocking. I knew that this stuff was going on with the super big pop artists on their arena tours, and even knew that rock and metal bands also used this kind of assistance (not too long ago on Blabbermouth Sebastion Bach was on rant about it), but I didn't realize that small bands at the bar and club level were doing it.
So here's how this guy's metal band does sound live. Everybody is going direct and using amp modelers, all the drums are micd, and everything goes into the board. There are no amps in the backline and everything comes through the mains. Everyone on stage has in-ear monitors and has the ability to control exactly how much they need to hear of every individual channel. But here's the part that threw me for a loop: They're not just hearing a click or a metronome in their in-ear monitors (what I has assumed), but rather the entire prerecorded tune. Additionally, individual tracks of the prerecorded tune drop in our out of the mains during the performance. He told me that most big rock and metal acts do exactly this. Iron Maiden was one he cited specifically.
Think about the implications of this. A band (or sound guy) can blend in whatever degree of the pre-recorded tune, or individual pre-recorded tracks, at any time. So a guitarist can be playing a solo along with the full recording in his in-ear monitors, with maybe a bit of the recording coming through the mains. If your live guitar is washed in effects, reverb, delay, and so on, who in the audience is going to be able to tell how much pre-recorded guitar is being blended in to "sweeten" it up? Obviously singers can do this too, as Paul Stanley has been much criticized for in recent years.
I was just wondering what everyone else here thinks about this. I have no compunction sharing my feelings on the subject, which is that I find it horrifying! To me it signals the death of musicianship. It's almost like these guys are playing Guitar Hero on stage, or like the musicians equivalent of using a walker. How the hell did we get here? Is my thinking that the words "artist," "musician," and "performer" are synonymous with the word "skilled" totally out of sync with the times? Have I become just a cranky old man?
Anyways, would love to hear everyone's thoughts.
Bands Using Prerecorded Tracks During Live Performance
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“There are only two means of refuge from the miseries of life: Music and Cats!” Albert Schweitzer
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It's not new, but I've never heard of non-touring groups doing it. It's more typically done by groups that only do their own original music. Personally, I don't respect it when anyone does it, no matter how big. That's easy for me to say though, because I don't gig. Trying to match my best studio performance live in 100 degree heat after a long road trip, I might feel differently.
In the late seventies I worked for a sound reinforcement company and we did a gig with a major pop sensation of the time. His vocals were pre-recorded and he lip synched to them. I don't remember how the recording was synched with the band, but I'm guessing it was as you say - fed through the monitors, which implies the whole band was playing to a backing track.
At the time I saw it as not merely a cheat, but in the realm of fraud. Now, as I get older and understand how the simplest accidents or health issues can throw you off your peak (and the resulting effects on your band, your tour, everyone's income, etc) I see more justification for it. However, in the example I mentioned, the vocals seemed to sound like someone else. That's a bit of a different matter.....
At the time I saw it as not merely a cheat, but in the realm of fraud. Now, as I get older and understand how the simplest accidents or health issues can throw you off your peak (and the resulting effects on your band, your tour, everyone's income, etc) I see more justification for it. However, in the example I mentioned, the vocals seemed to sound like someone else. That's a bit of a different matter.....
Personally, I wouldn't want to be in a band that does this. For me, it's all about the noise you're making with a few good friend (or frenemies, as the case may be). I don't need the help, and I don't want to pantomime. I would walk away if it came to this. That's just me, tho.
If you can't hold up your end of the bargain, you should either simplify your music or woodshed until you can play it. Either way, if you're selling me a ticket to a show - I expect you're going to perform. If I want to listen to your recordings, I can do that at home, keep my $35 parking fee, and drink non-diluted beverages that I bought for a reasonable price.
OTOH, people generally know what they're buying into, and "theater" is part of the deal with a lot of acts. I'm not headed into a pop star's show thinking it's all done live. Nor would I expect any real performance from a festival DJ. I expect smoke and mirrors from them. However, If I'm headed to a rock show and they're playing recordings over the PA (mixed in or not), that's not cool to me. Rock genres are somewhat based on "street cred" for lack of a better term. If I found out one of my favorite bands were using backing tracks to prop them up, I'd probably not enjoy them as much anymore - and I certainly wouldn't buy their tix. One of the appeals to me is that someone, somewhere can actually play that shit live. Proficiency is a selling point.
If you can't hold up your end of the bargain, you should either simplify your music or woodshed until you can play it. Either way, if you're selling me a ticket to a show - I expect you're going to perform. If I want to listen to your recordings, I can do that at home, keep my $35 parking fee, and drink non-diluted beverages that I bought for a reasonable price.
OTOH, people generally know what they're buying into, and "theater" is part of the deal with a lot of acts. I'm not headed into a pop star's show thinking it's all done live. Nor would I expect any real performance from a festival DJ. I expect smoke and mirrors from them. However, If I'm headed to a rock show and they're playing recordings over the PA (mixed in or not), that's not cool to me. Rock genres are somewhat based on "street cred" for lack of a better term. If I found out one of my favorite bands were using backing tracks to prop them up, I'd probably not enjoy them as much anymore - and I certainly wouldn't buy their tix. One of the appeals to me is that someone, somewhere can actually play that shit live. Proficiency is a selling point.
"What is this place? Where am I?"
The first part, quiet stage with no amps, all going direct and all using in ears with a custom monitoring mix is definitely what I have seen as a MAJOR trend in the last 5 or so years. It solves so many issues and just makes things easier.
I have also seen a few smaller acts with a laptop on stage mixing in extra pre-recorded instruments and things like that, but I have not noticed any of the acts I have seen sending a full recording to the PA. I am with you though, that would piss me off. Live music should be at least mostly live.
I have also seen a few smaller acts with a laptop on stage mixing in extra pre-recorded instruments and things like that, but I have not noticed any of the acts I have seen sending a full recording to the PA. I am with you though, that would piss me off. Live music should be at least mostly live.
It's funny how times change. I remember back in the late 70's, (and to this day) Queen used the recorded operatic bit of Bohemian Rhapsody and left the stage as it played, returning for the rock finale. They were absolutely castigated for doing that. Now it's not even talked about, and actually expected.
ELO also was suspected of doing a lot of sweetening in their live shows in the 70's, and took a lot of heat for it. I saw Jeff Lynne a couple of years ago and there's no doubt that some of the string parts are not played 100% live.
Having said that--there's really no excuse (IMO) for a band to cheat with recorded instruments that they are expected to be able to play. That is, if you are a guitarist, you should be able to approximate what's on the record. If you are a guitarist playing a song that was recorded with an orchestra, you have 3 choices--play it without the orchestra, play with a recording of the orchestra, or don't play the tune.
In other words, make it so that if you're using a recording, the audience knows it.
ELO also was suspected of doing a lot of sweetening in their live shows in the 70's, and took a lot of heat for it. I saw Jeff Lynne a couple of years ago and there's no doubt that some of the string parts are not played 100% live.
Having said that--there's really no excuse (IMO) for a band to cheat with recorded instruments that they are expected to be able to play. That is, if you are a guitarist, you should be able to approximate what's on the record. If you are a guitarist playing a song that was recorded with an orchestra, you have 3 choices--play it without the orchestra, play with a recording of the orchestra, or don't play the tune.
In other words, make it so that if you're using a recording, the audience knows it.
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As noted above by others, I agree that there are times it is appropriate to have music, sound effects, etc, occurring onstage that aren't performed but the musicians. Take a live performance of Pink Floyd's The Wall for example. It's going to enhance the audience's enjoyment of the performance to have the sound effects heard on the recording (including music in some cases) coming out of the mains. But everybody understands that it's done for enhancement and that certain audio is prerecorded. There's no deception on the part of the performers.
I think what really bothers me is the idea of technical metal bands doing this. Sure, that music is difficult to play, but suck it up buttercup! I have the privilege of having got to see Metallica, Megadeth, Testament, Overkill, and Anthrax live back in the late 80s/very early 90s. These bands did not have recourse to the kind of computer/digital assistance todays metal bands avail themselves of. They had to actually play that difficult stuff, and they did!
I think what really bothers me is the idea of technical metal bands doing this. Sure, that music is difficult to play, but suck it up buttercup! I have the privilege of having got to see Metallica, Megadeth, Testament, Overkill, and Anthrax live back in the late 80s/very early 90s. These bands did not have recourse to the kind of computer/digital assistance todays metal bands avail themselves of. They had to actually play that difficult stuff, and they did!
“There are only two means of refuge from the miseries of life: Music and Cats!” Albert Schweitzer
Here's the other thing. I don't even mind if the player has to do a different arrangement or the song turns into a very skeletal version live. I actually *like* seeing the effort that an artist will put in to actually pull the tune off. To reference Queen again, they were masters at doing this. Cheap Trick was another that never shied away from stripping down an arrangement, but keeping the "tasty bits" that the user expected to hear.
Hard to get more rock and roll than that. Groups that pipe everything in are just miming, IMO. I hated to see Paul Stanley doing this on the last tour, but frankly, I don't think they would have been able to tour otherwise. He's shot as a vocalist.
Hard to get more rock and roll than that. Groups that pipe everything in are just miming, IMO. I hated to see Paul Stanley doing this on the last tour, but frankly, I don't think they would have been able to tour otherwise. He's shot as a vocalist.
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I liken music to food. There's room for all kinds, but if I pay money to eat at a restaurant, which pretends to be "gourmet", I expect the food to be cooked to order (there are some acceptable exceptions, like parcooked pasta/rice, stuff that they make in the morning for the day). But if they use canned soup or instant mashed potatoes (yes, I DO ask), I do not consider that a restaurant, I'll never come back. A steakhouse that can't make mashed potatoes from scratch?
As for the pre-recorded tracks, If someone did this at a free performance, I wouldn't care But other than that, I can listen to recordings or open a can of tuna at home.
As for the pre-recorded tracks, If someone did this at a free performance, I wouldn't care But other than that, I can listen to recordings or open a can of tuna at home.
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To be fair, Paul is in his 60s, and had to have vocal surgery a few years back. He isn't the first or last singer to lose his fastball.jhull54 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:49 am Here's the other thing. I don't even mind if the player has to do a different arrangement or the song turns into a very skeletal version live. I actually *like* seeing the effort that an artist will put in to actually pull the tune off. To reference Queen again, they were masters at doing this. Cheap Trick was another that never shied away from stripping down an arrangement, but keeping the "tasty bits" that the user expected to hear.
Hard to get more rock and roll than that. Groups that pipe everything in are just miming, IMO. I hated to see Paul Stanley doing this on the last tour, but frankly, I don't think they would have been able to tour otherwise. He's shot as a vocalist.
Case in point: would you rather hear this or have him use electronic support?
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- toomanycats
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Rollin Hand wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:12 pmI'd rather hear this because it's about the funniest thing out there since real comedy has pretty much died.
“There are only two means of refuge from the miseries of life: Music and Cats!” Albert Schweitzer
Oh, I hear you. I love Paul Stanley and age gets us all. Have seen KISS several times, and never seen a band work harder in concert to make sure everyone has a great time. But I don't know. I think really it's past time for them to call it a day.Rollin Hand wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:12 pm To be fair, Paul is in his 60s, and had to have vocal surgery a few years back. He isn't the first or last singer to lose his fastball.
Case in point: would you rather hear this or have him use electronic support?
Not a fan of Vince. I saw them with Cheap Trick in 1997 at the show below. Only rock show I've ever walked out on.
I would think it was weird if a band was playing to a click track in their in-ear monitors, so it seems no better or worse but still weird for them to be playing to a prerecorded track in their monitors, but I guess whatever gets you through the show...
Playing a prerecorded track over the mains or front of house speakers, that's a very different matter. Either way, it seems to me like it would kill a lot of spontaneity: sometimes my band will extend a section when playing live, or do an extended outro, or something. If you're playing to a prerecorded track, you can't do that unless you planned it all out in advance. Also, doesn't it require you to have a dedicated sound guy to do this, since he'd have to start each song when signaled from the stage or something? I'd hate to think of trying this and having to go "OK, sound guy dude, hit the next track!"
Anyway, when hearing that even bar and club bands are doing this kind of thing I sometimes wonder if either people mean something very different by those terms, or maybe it's a regional difference, because here in NYC it's hard to imagine people doing it. I'm not saying it's never done, but the bar and club shows I've attended (not recently, sadly) tend to be very simple affairs. When you see stage monitors it's a sign of a fancy gig!
Playing a prerecorded track over the mains or front of house speakers, that's a very different matter. Either way, it seems to me like it would kill a lot of spontaneity: sometimes my band will extend a section when playing live, or do an extended outro, or something. If you're playing to a prerecorded track, you can't do that unless you planned it all out in advance. Also, doesn't it require you to have a dedicated sound guy to do this, since he'd have to start each song when signaled from the stage or something? I'd hate to think of trying this and having to go "OK, sound guy dude, hit the next track!"
Anyway, when hearing that even bar and club bands are doing this kind of thing I sometimes wonder if either people mean something very different by those terms, or maybe it's a regional difference, because here in NYC it's hard to imagine people doing it. I'm not saying it's never done, but the bar and club shows I've attended (not recently, sadly) tend to be very simple affairs. When you see stage monitors it's a sign of a fancy gig!
I'm glad you brought this up. I was just now thinking of the dullest arena show I've ever seen. - Alan Jackson, playing to thousands of people. It was absolutely wooden, both musically and aesthetically. It had not occurred to me until now that pre-recording might have been part of the reason. But that brings up another question - If you don't have to actually perform well musically, couldn't you at least divert that effort into making it look good?glasshand wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:53 pm ...
Playing a prerecorded track over the mains or front of house speakers, that's a very different matter. Either way, it seems to me like it would kill a lot of spontaneity: sometimes my band will extend a section when playing live, or do an extended outro, or something. If you're playing to a prerecorded track, you can't do that unless you planned it all out in advance. ...
Anyway, when hearing that even bar and club bands are doing this kind of thing I sometimes wonder if either people mean something very different by those terms, or maybe it's a regional difference, because here in NYC it's hard to imagine people doing it. I'm not saying it's never done, but the bar and club shows I've attended (not recently, sadly) tend to be very simple affairs. When you see stage monitors it's a sign of a fancy gig!
As far as monitors, my understanding is that one of the local clubs, not even a big one, has an "all backline" policy, including the (electronic) drums. Everyone brings their own in-ear monitors.
Like everyone else has said, not a fan. I hated it when Def Leppard was doing it back in the late 80’s and still don’t like it.
I can understand a solo artist adding some accompaniment to the set but not flat out fraud.
If you can’t cut it, tune it down or turn it off.
I can understand a solo artist adding some accompaniment to the set but not flat out fraud.
If you can’t cut it, tune it down or turn it off.
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- toomanycats
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Anybody who doesn't understand why backing tracks, clicks, and triggers are bad should watch this and really try to comprehend what is going on. It is the sound of freedom, creativity, spontaneity, collective improvisational genius.
“There are only two means of refuge from the miseries of life: Music and Cats!” Albert Schweitzer
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Oooooops! Judging from all the hysterical screaming the dingbat girls in the audience either didn't know or didn't seem to care that they were being deceived.
“There are only two means of refuge from the miseries of life: Music and Cats!” Albert Schweitzer
My first exposure was during the 90's at an outdoor music festival. Our group was a couple of sets before the headliner, which was a fairly major country act at that time. One of the guys found a CD on the ground afterward during cleanup. Turns out the headliner was using tracks AND recorded crowd noises and applause.
We saw Ed Sheeran a couple of years back and it was just him, a guitar and a looper....sounded great, no fillers. If I go to a live show, I pay to see the band play....warts and all.Spike wrote:Like everyone else has said, not a fan. I hated it when Def Leppard was doing it back in the late 80’s and still don’t like it.
I can understand a solo artist adding some accompaniment to the set but not flat out fraud.
If you can’t cut it, tune it down or turn it off.
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It was about 10 years ago I stopped going to scorpions concerts. I remember thinking how wooden and "perfect" it was. I kept thinking Ive g=heard these versions too much already. It was i think the last concert of the tour and somewhere near the encore I do remember them all looking at each other with kinda a nod the place exploded with energy. It just felt "live" . both more movement but mostly more energy in the music. And I could tell they were toying with the songs. Later I saw them again and I'm thinking the whole thing was prerecorded that time. If they are going to play to a recording can it at least be a new live version in stead of the same old tired radio ver. In contrast it may be that earlier scorps concert seemed so wooden was because Deep purple opened for them. Iwill state that in hindsight DEEP PURPLE DOES NOT PLAY TO BACKING TRACKS! They have soooo much groove its unstoppable. I try and play to that ideal when I get my band together.
I would have to say csn and stills solo do not play to backing tracks either. I've been very lucky with the concerts I've seen of them but there are recordings where something was happening and I know people who stopped seeing them back in the 80's because they thought they lost the ability to sing. Ive heard some of those recordings.
I think stills has just the last few years lost his ability to sing. Its so sad because just 2 years earlier he was as good as his 1969 demo and it was just impossible. Now I think it may actually be impossible.
I would have to say csn and stills solo do not play to backing tracks either. I've been very lucky with the concerts I've seen of them but there are recordings where something was happening and I know people who stopped seeing them back in the 80's because they thought they lost the ability to sing. Ive heard some of those recordings.
I think stills has just the last few years lost his ability to sing. Its so sad because just 2 years earlier he was as good as his 1969 demo and it was just impossible. Now I think it may actually be impossible.
my initial reaction is that it's gross. it certainly isn't the way i want to play music - especially in a live setting. i've always embraced the challenge of replicating a recorded sound live. i also appreciate having the space where live magic happens - not necessarily full on improvisation, but the option to take a detour when the feeling is right. if the chemistry of the band is good enough this kinda of thing starts to happen naturally. tonal, vocal, and timing imperfections are other factors that make a live experience unique.
that being said, pre-recorded samples/effects in the mix don't bother me necessarily - especially if they are triggered on stage by the musicians themselves. something like neurosis's use of creepy audio recordings during certain passages, or minus the bear's pre-recorded loop samples. or something like this where there's an unconventional instrument in the studio mix (in this case a harp at 0:58).
but the entire track in the mains? everyone locked into the click from the recording? what's the point?
i guess it probably doesn't matter as much for the non-musician who isn't analyzing what is happening on stage. i get the same turn-offs from pre-set modeler patches and playing direct/no amps moving air on the stage. it does feel a bit get off my lawn at times. i tend to keep my setups simple which may in turn limit my compositional abilities. perhaps it's just an extension of the belief that only acoustics are real guitars or that using pedals is cheating? i realize other people approach music differently, embrace technology more readily, and have the brain geared toward pushing its limits
there's just certain things i want to see and hear at a live performance - perfection isn't one of them
that being said, pre-recorded samples/effects in the mix don't bother me necessarily - especially if they are triggered on stage by the musicians themselves. something like neurosis's use of creepy audio recordings during certain passages, or minus the bear's pre-recorded loop samples. or something like this where there's an unconventional instrument in the studio mix (in this case a harp at 0:58).
but the entire track in the mains? everyone locked into the click from the recording? what's the point?
i guess it probably doesn't matter as much for the non-musician who isn't analyzing what is happening on stage. i get the same turn-offs from pre-set modeler patches and playing direct/no amps moving air on the stage. it does feel a bit get off my lawn at times. i tend to keep my setups simple which may in turn limit my compositional abilities. perhaps it's just an extension of the belief that only acoustics are real guitars or that using pedals is cheating? i realize other people approach music differently, embrace technology more readily, and have the brain geared toward pushing its limits
there's just certain things i want to see and hear at a live performance - perfection isn't one of them
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joined AGF March 20, 2013
Richie Blackmore's said of Joe Satriani that he respected the talent but he never got the feeling that he was searching for just the right note.
And Victor Wooten told Guitar Super System he could play the wrong notes so convincingly that the guitarist would seem to be the one who was off.....