Fake?

[uwmcscott]

I disagree. I have shopped for a tobacco burst Custom for years, and the backs of those headstocks look like this:

[/quote]

They came both ways, many pre-1980s were not painted. Multiple examples of 70's tobacco customs with transparent headstocks below

Here's a 1978 https://reverb.com/item/40221641-gibson ... uitar-1978

And another 78 https://reverb.com/item/36769886-gibson ... honeyburst

And then a 75 that's painted https://reverb.com/item/32124605-gibson ... acco-burst

And a transparent 79 https://reverb.com/item/36651753-1979-g ... _sold=true

and so on and so forth Gibson specs and quality were all over the board during that era - it's entirely possible that even that bridge wonkiness was a f-up by someone who drilled it the wrong way on a friday when they made all the lefty's



Again, bottom line is you'd need to go see it and likely contact Gibson to solve the riddle

[BatUtilityBelt]

They came both ways, many pre-1980s were not painted. Multiple examples of 70's tobacco customs with transparent headstocks below
...
and so on and so forth Gibson specs and quality were all over the board during that era - it's entirely possible that even that bridge wonkiness was a f-up by someone who drilled it the wrong way on a friday when they made all the lefty's

Again, bottom line is you'd need to go see it and likely contact Gibson to solve the riddle

I'll give you the potential transparent headstock on an early 1980 given 70's examples you gave. That is possible. I can't imagine the backwards slanted bridge surviving QC, a setup tech, the retailer, and whoever would have owned the guitar for 41 years without being able to intonate it.

After pressing, the seller told me he bought it from its original owner. Somehow this closet classic lived in a saltwater city for 41 years without pitting exposed non-precious metal parts?

[BatUtilityBelt]

Seller found another example of a lefty with a wonky bridge and tried to tell me it was correct. I told him it's not, then challenged him to tell me how the closet classic he bought from the original buyer was in a righty case. He shut down the conversation again with "Dude, you don't have to buy it". That is just not the response of someone who knows they have a legit 1980 to sell for thousands, or even of a seller who wants to know he is not selling counterfeits.

[uwmcscott]

Seller found another example of a lefty with a wonky bridge and tried to tell me it was correct. I told him it's not, then challenged him to tell me how the closet classic he bought from the original buyer was in a righty case. He shut down the conversation again with "Dude, you don't have to buy it". That is just not the response of someone who knows they have a legit 1980 to sell for thousands, or even of a seller who wants to know he is not selling counterfeits.

Are you interested in actually buying the guitar or just looking to pick a fight with the seller?

[BatUtilityBelt]

Are you interested in actually buying the guitar or just looking to pick a fight with the seller?

Initially I was very interested. But I am not interested in a counterfeit, and I do want to expose it if it is one.

Edit: I feel stupid about this, but I just finally noticed this appears to be the only 1980 tobacco LPC I can find with a plain (not burst) back. Seems that should have stuck out like a sore thumb to me, but I missed it all this time. It's easy to appreciate an attractive instrument and just not see what's wrong.

[uwmcscott]

Initially I was very interested. But I am not interested in a counterfeit, and I do want to expose it if it is one.

Not trying to jerk your chain at all, but to be honest i'd proceed with caution. You've already pretty much publicly accused him of a crime and also done the same by contacting him directly and suggesting it's not real. Whether it's real or not is something you cannot determine here on an internet forum, and to be frank you've already indicated that you don't know the whole story. For example, you used the painted vs. non-painted headstock thing as a determining factor in your analysis, but you are incorrect.

I'm not an expert either - I like to think I know a lot about Gibsons, but every time you turn around you find one that is an oddity. Their production during the Norlin era was all over the map - both in spec and quality.

So again, not trying to get in a fight with you - just suggesting you might want to consider toning down your public smear campaign against the guy for your own sake.

[mozz]

" Gibson specs and quality were all over the board during that era". Very true.

I don't think it's counterfeit. Look at the pictures of the ones uwmcscott posted. Inlays not centered and also crooked, diamond logo not centered, gibson logo crooked, i doubt very much they are all counterfeit. The bridge i can see it is somewhat slanted the wrong way but that does not mean it will not intonate. On the other hand maybe it does not intonate and that's why it's in such nice shape, because it sounded like crap. Plating quality on the pickup covers may be better than on the bridge because maybe they were made by different vendors. Besides, maybe the owner didn't touch the covers while he played or maybe he cleaned them after each use.

How about just buy it, then if you determine it's fake Reverb will refund your money once you prove it's fake to them. Maybe the owner had bought the plastic case used at a later date.

[BatUtilityBelt]

I've heard of people being out their money after buying counterfeits through ebay and reverb alike. I'm not going to be one of those stories.

Most aspects do have their own potential explanations, but all together they just don't carry water. To buy this story, I'd have to believe the original one owner:

found the only 1980 LPC tobacco burst with no burst on the back that I've seen.
managed to get a well centered 2 piece top when Gibson was making 3 piece tops.
must have played slide because the bridge has a ton more wear than the frets.
didn't mind that he couldn't intonate the guitar because he never sent it back for the wrong-slanted bridge.
did some routing in the control cavity for an unknown reason.
traded his lefty case for a righty's case.
changed the switch tip because he did not like matching parts.
changed the truss rod cover because he didn't like that his was right-side-up when playing.
must have played very gently because those pickup covers are pristine.
avoided nonprecious metal parts pitting in Jacksonville FL for 41 years.

[uwmcscott]

I've heard of people being out their money after buying counterfeits through ebay and reverb alike. I'm not going to be one of those stories.

You can also do that by just not buying it. Just make sure you are prepared for the recourse of your crusade if you are wrong, and remember that no matter how hard you try there's still going to be people who get duped.

I'm very much against counterfeit guitars myself, but at the end of the day it's a buyer beware world out there. If you are honestly too stupid to do your homework before dropping 4 grand on a guitar, that's your ( not you specifically ) problem - not mine.

[BatUtilityBelt]

You can also do that by just not buying it. Just make sure you are prepared for the recourse of your crusade if you are wrong, and remember that no matter how hard you try there's still going to be people who get duped.

I'm very much against counterfeit guitars myself, but at the end of the day it's a buyer beware world out there. If you are honestly too stupid to do your homework before dropping 4 grand on a guitar, that's your ( not you specifically ) problem - not mine.

That's true for me, but early on I could have easily been taken with a good counterfeit. I think it's a good idea among a community, to warn others about these things when we see them. I never called the seller a scammer, only tried to get assurance it was authentic and he got defensive when I did.

And I'll correct myself on the plain back - in the 70's, there were some. I still admit it might even be a real (just very quirky) example.

[uwmcscott]

I never called the seller a scammer, only tried to get assurance it was authentic and he got defensive when I did.

While you did not specifically call him a scammer, you did specifically call it out as a Fake in 2 posts here in this thread. Remember this is a public forum and it's not just AGF people who can see the threads. Look at what happened with that TGP thread a couple weeks ago with the alleged fake R8.

Regarding the seller - would you have expected him to react any differently? To him you are just some guy on the internet who's claiming that his merchandise is fake. And posting about it based on some pictures on a website without ever seeing the guitar in person. I'd be defensive too.

[BatUtilityBelt]

I never called the seller a scammer, only tried to get assurance it was authentic and he got defensive when I did.

While you did not specifically call him a scammer, you did specifically call it out as a Fake in 2 posts here in this thread. Remember this is a public forum and it's not just AGF people who can see the threads. Look at what happened with that TGP thread a couple weeks ago with the alleged fake R8.

Regarding the seller - would you have expected him to react any differently? To him you are just some guy on the internet who's claiming that his merchandise is fake. And posting about it based on some pictures on a website without ever seeing the guitar in person. I'd be defensive too.

I worded my questions to the seller in a way a conscientious seller should probably understand some assurances are needed in the current market that has so many fakes (including some very good ones).

I went through this thread, and you are correct that I did overstate my opinion, so I modified a bit because it was not my intention to say I knew that. It is my intention to denote all the ways I think it looks possibly counterfeit.