A Guitar And Gear Support Forum

I've had enough of the SD '59 in my 335 clone. Below is a clip of what it sounds like.

I don't know what it's tone has too much of (or is missing) but whatever it is, I've never liked it and will be ordering something else soon. I think that I want something with some more top end. But I'm not sure if that's the frequency I'm looking for.

Suggestions appreciated.




I love this guy's tone. I know that alot of tone is in his fingers and playing style, but still...

Looks like he is playing a Gibson Midtown. They come with Burstbuckers so unless he has changed them out that is what is making his tone. Some like them and some don't. I am going through a tone crisis as well. I am picky about pups but it's more of an amp thing for me. I am moving away from 6L6 or 6V6 power tube amp and going back to the Classic 30 with EL84 tubes. It seems like that is the cycle for me. I play EL84 tube amps for awhile, Peavey, Vox, Laney, etc., then my ear gets tired of them and I go back to Ampeg, Luker or Fender amps. Recently they started sounding less than lively so am back with the C30.

For the record Tim just made me a set of hums for my Firefly 335 copy and they sound great but again I switched amps too. I would recommend telling Tim what you want, he always nails it.

tonebender wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:42 pm Looks like he is playing a Gibson Midtown. They come with Burstbuckers so unless he has changed them out that is what is making his tone. Some like them and some don't. I am going through a tone crisis as well. I am picky about pups but it's more of an amp thing for me. I am moving away from 6L6 or 6V6 power tube amp and going back to the Classic 30 with EL84 tubes. It seems like that is the cycle for me. I play EL84 tube amps for awhile, Peavey, Vox, Laney, etc., then my ear gets tired of them and I go back to Ampeg, Luker or Fender amps. Recently they started sounding less than lively so am back with the C30.

For the record Tim just made me a set of hums for my Firefly 335 copy and they sound great but again I switched amps too. I would recommend telling Tim what you want, he always nails it.

Tone crisis is a great summation of my present state. I just ordered a new speaker for the Princeton Reverb and now I'm licking the frog and swapping out the pick-up. The SD isn't a bad humbucker, it's just not the right one for my ear in this guitar. Stay tuned for the speaker swap follow up post. When all is said and done I hope to sound like me, but a little more (if that makes sense).

tlarson58 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:57 pm I've had enough of the SD '59 in my 335 clone. Below is a clip of what it sounds like.

I don't know what it's tone has too much of (or is missing) but whatever it is, I've never liked it and will be ordering something else soon. I think that I want something with some more top end. But I'm not sure if that's the frequency I'm looking for.

Suggestions appreciated.




I love this guy's tone. I know that alot of tone is in his fingers and playing style, but still...

It's not a frequency thing, but rather a tone thing. Using your original recording and the video of the guy playing the cranked Princeton as a guide, it's my opinion that you're after something more open, hollow, vocal, and airy. For me that describes the tone of Gibson Burstbucker 1 in the neck and 2 in the bridge. The low number of winds, lack of wax potting, A2 magnets, and unbalanced coils (amongst other factors) is the recipe for that tone. Many people think that Burstbucker 1 & 2 sound thin and lack output, but in the hands of a player who knows how to use them these pickups will "talk," communicating nuances as delicate and subtle as a surgeons fingers.

Zackly John, that is why I brought up the Burstbucker thing. Also Tim uses Alnico 2 magnets in the pups he does for me. I think most of the tone comes from the pups but the amp does color it slightly. Everyone is always comparing amp tone to either Fender or Vox and when trying to characterize an amp by another brand name. I boil that down to big bottle power tubes vs EL84 tubes. I prefer good P90's or hums with alnico 2 magnets. Other than that a vacillate between the two amp types. I do not own a solid state amp and haven't in several decades so I cannot speak to that.

It will be interesting to see what the speaker swap does. I just swapped out the speaker in my Fender Super Champ and I like it better but it did not stop me from my move back to the C30. To let y'all in on a secret I have a somewhat rare amp on the way that I am hoping will be my "go to". It will be here Friday and it is an EL84 based amp.

I am subscribed to this thread.

I remember now! I believe the truss rod was broken so the neck was done.

I've read a lot of folks liking SD Antiquity in 335's, as well as Lollar Imperials which are offered as low, standard, or high wind. And Wolftone Dr V's another that folks rave about. Also folks like SD Phat Cats hb sized p90, in 335's. I saw a great vid with those.

Soon I will be shuffling pups thru a 335 style, too. Used 2002 es333 due today.
It's coming with 57 Classics, along with their stock 490t/r included.
I have several WCR pickups to try, as well as Onomac Windery Custom Alnico where the guy added impurities into alnico mix to try and recreate older mag production. Interesting approach and great sound. They are very nice low wind that growl easy. They were on Doug And Pat Show shootout. Also I'll try a HB sized p90 in bridge. It will take a while but it will be a nice living room shootout.

Comments in the vid say it's a 339.

I suspect that the amp settings have something to do with this. If someone were ask me which magnet was in these pickups I would say A5, which would jibe with the Burstbuckers.

tlarson58 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:57 pm I've had enough of the SD '59 in my 335 clone. Below is a clip of what it sounds like.

I don't know what it's tone has too much of (or is missing) but whatever it is, I've never liked it and will be ordering something else soon. I think that I want something with some more top end. But I'm not sure if that's the frequency I'm looking for.

Suggestions appreciated.




I love this guy's tone. I know that alot of tone is in his fingers and playing style, but still...

I wouldn't use any random person's video as a model for pickups to get, because there are 100 factors there as you mentioned (besides the playing, it's the amp, pedals, how it's recorded, etc). I would HIGHLY recommend a Bareknuckle Mule...I put a set into my custom shop AS-1000 and that pickup is an absolutely heavenly match for a 335-style guitar. They're pricey new but you can find a used one for pretty much what a Duncan would cost new ($90-$100ish).

slowhand84 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:58 am

tlarson58 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:57 pm I've had enough of the SD '59 in my 335 clone. Below is a clip of what it sounds like.

I don't know what it's tone has too much of (or is missing) but whatever it is, I've never liked it and will be ordering something else soon. I think that I want something with some more top end. But I'm not sure if that's the frequency I'm looking for.

Suggestions appreciated.



I love this guy's tone. I know that alot of tone is in his fingers and playing style, but still...

I wouldn't use any random person's video as a model for pickups to get, because there are 100 factors there as you mentioned (besides the playing, it's the amp, pedals, how it's recorded, etc). I would HIGHLY recommend a Bareknuckle Mule...I put a set into my custom shop AS-1000 and that pickup is an absolutely heavenly match for a 335-style guitar. They're pricey new but you can find a used one for pretty much what a Duncan would cost new ($90-$100ish).

Thank you for the reccomendation. I am researching this and it looks pretty good. I'm also seriously considering going the burstbucker 1 and 2 route.

What type of amp do you play through?

I know the 490R/T are not the most loved, but the 490T bridge is a "modern PAF" wind A2.
I like mine a LOT in an SG.
I find them to be more "open" sounding, or maybe the term is less compressed?

Can probably found used fairly cheap.

@tlarson58 I liked your playing and the clip!

Remember the first rule of 'Tone Quest': change one thing at a time and listen. I recommend you do the speaker and then consider pickups swaps (after you break the speaker in). Otherwise, you may get caught up in the cycle of throwing money at it.

You have a Princeton like the guy in the video, correct? I can tell you he has the volume on '7' or '8', bright cap on (or not snipped internally, as some people do) the treble on '7' and the bass between '3' and '4'. Not sure if his is a stock speaker, as it sounded like a Celestion Greenback to me. Try your amp with those settings to see how your current set-up sounds. Record on your phone like he did to get the room ambiance, to compare.

But, my ears told me you did not record your track with those settings and the room ambience. So try that for a comparison.

As others pointed out, it is a Gibson Midtown, probably with Burstbucker 1 & 2 pickups. Those are very close to Duncan 59's, which I used for a long time and like (I like my AMIs better). The Burstbucker coils each have different number of winds, which makes them more 'single coil' sounding than the 59's, which have closely matched coils. Also, the BB's use Alnico 2 magnets (upper mid focused) and the 59's, Alnico 5 (more scooped).

IMHO, the guitar itself is a big part of a semi-hollow body's tone, especially if you keep the pickups set farther from the strings.

My preferred tone is in the PAF range and here is how I achieve clarity, harmonics, a little girth (mids and bass) and string balance:
- The AMI Pickups I build have a winding pattern which lowers the capacitance so the pickup is never muddy or harsh. My comparable semi hollow is using AMI 'Butterfingers,' which are A2 bridge and A5 neck. I can get the tones in that guy's video with that guitar.
- 50's wiring (tone goes to the middle lug of the volume).
- When rolling off the volume still sounds too dark, I use a subtle series treble bleed (270k resistor + 680pF cap) between pins 3 (where the pickup comes in) & 2 (the volume lug). I can make you one for free, if you like.

tlarson58 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:57 am

slowhand84 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:58 am

tlarson58 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:57 pm I've had enough of the SD '59 in my 335 clone. Below is a clip of what it sounds like.

I don't know what it's tone has too much of (or is missing) but whatever it is, I've never liked it and will be ordering something else soon. I think that I want something with some more top end. But I'm not sure if that's the frequency I'm looking for.

Suggestions appreciated.



I love this guy's tone. I know that alot of tone is in his fingers and playing style, but still...

I wouldn't use any random person's video as a model for pickups to get, because there are 100 factors there as you mentioned (besides the playing, it's the amp, pedals, how it's recorded, etc). I would HIGHLY recommend a Bareknuckle Mule...I put a set into my custom shop AS-1000 and that pickup is an absolutely heavenly match for a 335-style guitar. They're pricey new but you can find a used one for pretty much what a Duncan would cost new ($90-$100ish).

Thank you for the reccomendation. I am researching this and it looks pretty good. I'm also seriously considering going the burstbucker 1 and 2 route.

What type of amp do you play through?

This beast right here. Replied to your PM too, feel free to ask any questions and I'll be happy to help however I can.

deleted for the one below...

@slowhand84 and @andrewsrea

Here is a clip for apples-to-apples comparison. It will be deleted in 12 hours. A few notes...

- What you see is 2/3 of our house. The cat tree and puppy kennel will be moved shortly. We. have. no. room.
- The video's tone is what I heard in the room (the camera's mic was up to the task).
- It's as good of sound that I can coax out of the amp and pickup. Amp's volume is at 6, treble is on 8.5 and bass on 2.5.
- My tele sounds good so it has to be the 335's pick-up, right?

My thought is that the bridge pickup and amp are trying (and failing) to reach a tight mid-range frequency. A new Weber DT speaker* is en route (there goes the surprise). It breaks up earlier and supposedly is the speaker that Derek Trucks uses. I'm as good as Derek Trucks so I will probably enjoy it, too.


* "Weber’s DT-10 speaker provides warm smooth tone with good bottom end. The 20oz magnet helps keep the speaker somewhat inefficient, so you can drive your amp into overdrive more easily than with a more efficient speaker. Excellent replacement for CTS ceramics in Super Reverbs, as well as a solid choice for Princetons and Vibroluxes where you want to get some drive from those amps without a thin and harsh treble."

what about an eq pedal in the mix. Get some upper mid and high sparkle goin'.

tlarson58 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:22 pm @slowhand84 and @andrewsrea

Here is a clip for apples-to-apples comparison. It will be deleted in 12 hours. A few notes...

- What you see is 2/3 of our house. The cat tree and puppy kennel will be moved shortly. We. have. no. room.
- The video's tone is what I heard in the room (the camera's mic was up to the task).
- It's as good of sound that I can coax out of the amp and pickup. Amp's volume is at 6, treble is on 8.5 and bass on 2.5.
- My tele sounds good so it has to be the 335's pick-up, right?

My thought is that the bridge pickup and amp are trying (and failing) to reach a tight mid-range frequency. A new Weber DT speaker* is en route (there goes the surprise). It breaks up earlier and supposedly is the speaker that Derek Trucks uses. I'm as good as Derek Trucks so I will probably enjoy it, too.


* "Weber’s DT-10 speaker provides warm smooth tone with good bottom end. The 20oz magnet helps keep the speaker somewhat inefficient, so you can drive your amp into overdrive more easily than with a more efficient speaker. Excellent replacement for CTS ceramics in Super Reverbs, as well as a solid choice for Princetons and Vibroluxes where you want to get some drive from those amps without a thin and harsh treble."

@Partscaster's idea above is not a bad one...a good EQ might be all you need. This guitar is VERY diff from a tele and would require different amp settings. I would check out the EQ route in that you can buy one and return it if it doesn't resolve your issue, versus pickups which are a whole operation.

@slowhand84 @Partscaster

Tried the EQ route. The changes in frequencies inspired a wide range of tones but the muffled sound was ever-present. It just. couldn't. get there. By the time I'd get close to a usable sound (to my ear) the treble was on 10, the bass on zero and the eq was so jacked that I almost gave up this amp for another. I don't want to do that when I know that the amp sounds good with my tele and I'm a step or two away from a straight-in rig with both guitars.

tlarson58 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:21 pm @slowhand84 @Partscaster

Tried the EQ route. The changes in frequencies inspired a wide range of tones but the muffled sound was ever-present. It just. couldn't. get there. By the time I'd get close to a usable sound (to my ear) the treble was on 10, the bass on zero and the eq was so jacked that I almost gave up this amp for another. I don't want to do that when I know that the amp sounds good with my tele and I'm a step or two away from a straight-in rig with both guitars.

Gotcha, in that case the pickups might be the way to go. If what you're looking for is clarity (aka anti-muffling lol)...I'd stick with my suggestions in the PM. Clarity is the #1 thing I love the most about BKPs and something I think sets em apart from some other options out there to my ear.

IMHO, your tone is really good and you are on the right track.

in comparison the other guy's video from your earlier post, two things I hear different are: that tone has speaker sizzle and the 'pick' sound. Even with an acoustically dark sounding semi-hollow body, you should be able to get the pick attack sound and I am not hearing it in either of your recordings. So yes, pickups can help.

Isn't his switch in the neck postion? Your comments say you are using the bridge pup.

ILuvTeles wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:58 am Isn't his switch in the neck postion? Your comments say you are using the bridge pup.

I saw him flip it a few times between middle and bridge. Not much of a tonal change but a little brighter in places.

OP, how close are your pickups to the strings? That might be a factor too.

I'm preparing for some mod options on my 333.

Tailpiece:
IE, trying swap from zink tail piece to aluminum tailpiece.
Paying attention to stoptail anchor posts and bushings in body. Check with magnet as to what is steel and what is likely brass.
Old vintage 50's had steel bushings in body, and steel stoptail anchor posts, and pure aluminum stoptail.

Bridge:
if abr-1: vintage was brass thumbwheel threaded posts, and brass thumbwheels.
They make steel versions of both which might brighten and balance with other components in the mix.

If Nashville bridge: there are adapter bridge posts to end up with ABR-1 bridge, or nashville bridges can probably be found with brass saddles, nylon, or steel, etc.
Faber is a good German company making good ABR-1 and Nashville bridges with some metals options for posts and saddles. Also Philadelphia Luthiers has good cheap brass and steel thumbwheels and threaded posts, bridge options, etc.

So, these components could lend toward considerable guitar tone shift, quite possibly enough that old pickups become fine.

@Partscaster

Hm...

Lots to think about. I ordered some new pickups. If they come up short I'll be sure to try these mods. Thanks.

@Rollin Hand

Not too far and not too close. I got the guitar set up when it arrived and haven't noodled with the height other than to balance the volume now and then.