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I guess Mr. Wampler has an Agile AL... he says it doesn't sound like a Gibson Les Paul, but it stays in tune (and I presume the neck is stable)!

https://play.acast.com/s/2c953894-1106- ... 3?seek=982

Milkman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:35 pm I guess Mr. Wampler has an Agile AL... he says it doesn't sound like a Gibson Les Paul, but it stays in tune (and I presume the neck is stable)!

https://play.acast.com/s/2c953894-1106- ... 3?seek=982

Interesting to hear him say it doesn't sound like an LP...every single Agile AL I've had absolutely sounds like a Les Paul in pretty much every way. They also make a joke about it being made of compressed cardboard, which is funny cuz we all know that ain't true

Cool shout out.

I've had a handful of Agiles and none of em sounded like a Les Paul.

Maybe throwing a 498T, BB, or similar in there would have fixed that, though.

And Strymon's demo guy often has used his Agile in demo's.

Somewhere between those who make derogatory assertions like, "Made of compressed cardboard," and those who insist that body material has no effect upon tone whatsoever, lies the truth.

toomanycats wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:34 am Somewhere between those who make derogatory assertions like, "Made of compressed cardboard," and those who insist that body material has no effect upon tone whatsoever, lies the truth.

It matters not where the truth lies, people are going to believe whatever they are predisposed to believe.

As a kid my best friend used to argue with me about what was red and what was green.

Any time I brought someone from our families into the convo, they agreed with me.

I speculate that a huge portion of the population legitimately sees less colors and hears less tones than others...

...and that's before you account for humans being emotionally driven creatures who will blatantly go against reality to satisfy them.

In fairness, none of my Agiles ever sounded anything like my vintage American OR vintage Japanese guitars.

They all had that same modern import sound made from moist wood, overly thick finishes, and computer standardized pickups.

Did it sound like a guitar, though? Yep!

But then, how long will real amplifiers continue to exist? Are the majority of sounds being made today already digital? Does the guitar matter anymore?

My Agiles didn’t sound like a Les Paul when I got them. Swapping pickups fixed that though.

PsychoCid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:02 am
But then, how long will real amplifiers continue to exist? Are the majority of sounds being made today already digital? Does the guitar matter anymore?

Electric guitars through tube amps may well be recognized as one of the pinnacles of human achievement.
Eye of the beholder and all, until the metaverse identities get rights to cancel/unfund their analog dead weight.

Partscaster wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:43 pm

PsychoCid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:02 am
But then, how long will real amplifiers continue to exist? Are the majority of sounds being made today already digital? Does the guitar matter anymore?

Electric guitars through tube amps may well be recognized as one of the pinnacles of human achievement.
Eye of the beholder and all, until the metaverse identities get rights to cancel/unfund their analog dead weight.

Haha agreed.

You can hear a big difference in my guitars through my Fender.

Muuuuch less of a difference through AxeFX.

PsychoCid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:30 am Cool shout out.

I've had a handful of Agiles and none of em sounded like a Les Paul.

Maybe throwing a 498T, BB, or similar in there would have fixed that, though.

I am with you on this one. Mine sounded good, but it didn't have the upper end snarly scream that an LP has. Of course it didn't have a maple cap, which could be a factor.

Oddly enough, the closest non-LP I have heard was a Jackson Pro Okoume. The damn thing sounded incredible. The problem is you never see them on the cheap.

I'm confused that so many people think a Les Paul sounds like a Les Paul. Seriously, even in the same run, they can sound quite different from one to the next. Add in the variety of pickups and other changes, and it's pretty silly to even say "sound like a Les Paul". I have a few Gibson LPs, and they sound not at all alike.

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:16 pm I have a few Gibson LPs, and they sound not at all alike.

Move the pickups and electronics from one to another and they will sound nearly identical. At that point the differences are very subtle and often even inaudible.

Chocol8 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:23 am

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:16 pm I have a few Gibson LPs, and they sound not at all alike.

Move the pickups and electronics from one to another and they will sound nearly identical. At that point the differences are very subtle and often even inaudible.

Yeah, no. There are more differences than just the electronics. Many people talk about trying several from the same series and just one ends up having tone they love. I'm not even talking sustain here, just tone. They don't all sound alike.

The fact is I've lost count, but I am going to guess that I've played 50 to 100 Gibson Les Pauls. I was repairing them, setting them up, tried one in a music store, played a friend's LP, etc. A couple were from the 'grail' years (I was loaned a 1957 Gold Top w/ PAFs for 3 weeks in the mid 90's), many from the Norlin era and a ton from the 1987 to present. @golem has indeed help feed my ability to try LPs.

IMHO, there is no exact 'Les Paul sound' and I can say, specs, construction and quality was all over the place. Some were bricks with strings, some were resonant and warm like a violin, some were ringy like a piano, some were throaty, some were honky and some were a little of each.

I would say there is what I'll call a 'Les Paul ballpark' or neighborhood, which is also common to other Gibsons with humbuckers, 24.75" scale and 12" radius. More percussive low 'E' and 'A' strings as compared to the snappy Fenderor twangy Gretsch low strings. Due to the buckers and the girth, the mid range is more forward and note separation is a little more blurred than single coil guitars.

That said, I've encountered about 20 Agile LP type guitars and all were in the same neighborhood as the Gibsons (to which I've played some horrible LPs, which could not be made well for love nor money).

I am inclined to say along the lines of what @mickey mentioned which people who usually make comments about a tone, are usually doing so in contrast to some pre-disposition. One or two examples of a particular model that is their measuring stick.

The only guitar that I've played maybe 10 to 15 of that IMHO, had a close to identical (and extremely identiffyable) sound and feel no matter what year it was made, is the Rickenbacker 360 12-string electric.

PsychoCid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:30 am
Maybe throwing a 498T, BB, or similar in there would have fixed that, though.

FWIW, I've got several ALs with different sets of Gibson pickups in them and I assume that the differences in body material would be the only thing that kept them from sounding identical to the Gibson LPs I have with the same pickups. I cannot tell the difference between an AL-3100M (maple cap vs all mahogany body) with 498/490s and an LP Studio which came stock with the same...

tobijohn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:44 pm

PsychoCid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:30 am
Maybe throwing a 498T, BB, or similar in there would have fixed that, though.

FWIW, I've got several ALs with different sets of Gibson pickups in them and I assume that the differences in body material would be the only thing that kept them from sounding identical to the Gibson LPs I have with the same pickups. I cannot tell the difference between an AL-3100M (maple cap vs all mahogany body) with 498/490s and an LP Studio which came stock with the same...

Yeah I'd bet the pickups make enough of a diff for no one in the room to be able to tell

How picky I get about my #1 where everything has to be tight to the wood, no finish, heavy duty steel and brass parts etc...I can hear it but only because I know the guitar like the back of my hand. To anybody else, if just sounds like another guit-fiddle

Anyway, you know what's really funny? The moment I saw you replied to me, I presumed I was banned.

Last time, I was banned for giving the owner forum feedback he'd specifically asked for after retiring it of the blue specifically to usher dozens of old AGFers over.

Then a political comment was thrown at me. Meanwhile my father, my boss, and two of my neighbors had heart attacks and heart problems for doing what the owner wanted.

Weird, eh.

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:30 am

Chocol8 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:23 am Move the pickups and electronics from one to another and they will sound nearly identical. At that point the differences are very subtle and often even inaudible.

Yeah, no. There are more differences than just the electronics. Many people talk about trying several from the same series and just one ends up having tone they love. I'm not even talking sustain here, just tone. They don't all sound alike.

I didn’t say no difference, but it’s very small. Your “not at all alike” is a huge exaggeration once you eliminate pickups and electronics. In an A/B test of recorded samples you might be able to tell them apart. If someone simply played a single sample, I would be absolutely shocked if you could tell me which of your “not at all alike” guitars it came from (assuming same pickups and electronics).

I have done this test moving pickguards between very different Strats. Listening to a recording of each with the ability to flip up and back quickly, yeah, there is definitely a difference if you know what you are listening for. Between similar Strats, very very hard to hear anything at all.

Trust me, any “huge difference” you hear is pickups, different value caps or pots, different wiring, or your brain fooling your ears (which it is VERY good at doing). If you can solder, and have a means to record, make a few sound samples and get a friend to blind test you. It will be eye opening.

Chocol8 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:55 pm I didn’t say no difference, but it’s very small. Your “not at all alike” is a huge exaggeration once you eliminate pickups and electronics.

No, it isn't. I don't know why you so often want to assert that others are just wrong, but it's annoying, insulting, and frequently intolerable.

I happen to have a few guitars that could support either perspective because I tend to buy under-priced pieces for the prospect of flipping some and modding others. So some examples...

I have 4 Squier Classic Vibe Teles, 3 of which I would not be able to tell which I was playing without looking. The 4th had a little something extra to begin with, and I used it to mod to my favor. The other 3 I might flip or mod later, but all the same configuration, yet one was different. I set their action, their pickup heights, their intonation, and yet, different. You are not going to tell me what my ears can and cannot hear.

Conversely, I have 2 P90 based SX Liquids and if I wasn't looking, I would not be able to tell which I had in my hands. So I understand why some people think one model = roughly one sound, but...

I bought 3 of the same model when Reville was blowing out their inventory, and all 3 sound different enough that I hear it when I play it. One was my obvious favorite sound, so it's getting upgrades.

As a lefty, there are only a couple places on the planet I could walk into and play 5 guitars, let alone 5 from the same run. But some righties talk about doing so and finding "the one", and I believe them. I believe them because their experiences matter, and I believe them because some of my experiences lend more credence to theirs. But I don't believe anyone who simply wants to assert others are just wrong.

People don't always hear the same stuff, and when they do, they don't necessarily hear it the same way. This reminds me of an odd experience from way back in analog multitrack recording days. We had a project we thought was pretty well mixed and done. A friend came by and we played it for him. He said he liked it except for the strange background sound. It took a while to get him to describe the sound well, and then we realized that it was just a very high cross-talk ghost of our timecode track bleeding into the mix. It was so high we didn't hear it, but he did, and it annoyed him. We had to start over and make sure the timecode track was lower the second time. We kept that mix around to test other peoples' ears, and nobody else ever heard it. Garry was the only one with the "bat ears" to hear it. This helped teach us to try out mixes on as many people as we could, and that we don't mix for just our own ears. It was one of the things that taught me we all hear a little differently. But yeah, two guitars may sound identical to one person and quite distinct to another.

All I can say about this is that after playing a couple dozen in a row and making numerous amp and effects adjustments for each, to my ear at least, they all f'n sound pretty much the same...

Someone needs to invent a modeling pickup....

I've had three CS Les Pauls. Two were Les Paul Customs. All three sounded different. The R8 was really warm sounding. Maybe a bit too much for my tastes. One of the LPC had a lot of clarity like a PRS. The other LPC I had was a bit warmer sounding, really heavy, but had a good tone for high gain. I've had a Les Paul Classic. A traditional. A flying V. A tribute. I'm not convinced they all sounded the same. I didn't like the way the V felt to play but it sounded good. Next best was the LPC, but I can get that sound out of a PRS with less weight and better ergonomics.

I agree with Rob about them not all sounding the same.

tobijohn wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:56 pm Someone needs to invent a modeling pickup....

Isn't that sorta what a Variax does? I just wish it did it better.

golem wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:09 pm I've had three CS Les Pauls. Two were Les Paul Customs. All three sounded different. The R8 was really warm sounding. Maybe a bit too much for my tastes. One of the LPC had a lot of clarity like a PRS. The other LPC I had was a bit warmer sounding, really heavy, but had a good tone for high gain. I've had a Les Paul Classic. A traditional. A flying V. A tribute. I'm not convinced they all sounded the same. I didn't like the way the V felt to play but it sounded good. Next best was the LPC, but I can get that sound out of a PRS with less weight and better ergonomics.

I agree with Rob about them not all sounding the same.

There's got to be well over a dozen sets or combinations of production Gibson humbucker pickups (and plenty of P90s as well) with different specs that have been used over the last thirty years. I've got over half a dozen different humbuckers and two different sets of mini-humbuckers and they all sound different from one another. Different models use different pickups. Making it even more confusing is that the same model guitar might have used different sets over the years (Studios have had at least two different sets, maybe three). Its very difficult to make an apples to apples comparison...

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:35 pm No, it isn't. I don't know why you so often want to assert that others are just wrong, but it's annoying, insulting, and frequently intolerable.

I know you are wrong because I have spent a lot of time doing double blind testing and studying auditory hallucinations. As I said, test it yourself, you will learn something.