Humbucker tone differences on 3 different AL's

[devdem]

So's I have a pickup question for the crowd....

I have one of the AL-3500's I bought used years ago. It either came with, or someone installed, a set of Duncan pickups in it - SH-1B '59 and SH-2N Jazz, with the nickel/chrome covers. I rarely play it, as I also have an AL-2800 with a Duncan JB/Jazz set without covers, and just sold an AL-2000 with GFS Classic II Alnico 2 with covers.

Before selling the 2000, I was just swapping out all 3 guitars through the same clean princeton amp. The 3500 with the '59/Jazz covered pickups was notably softer than both the 2000 and 2800. Not bad and you wouldn't notice if you weren't swapping between guitars. But even my buddy noticed when I switched to the 3500 the tone seems to be ever so slightly dampened. Setups on all 3 guitars essentially identical and new strings.

The pots may be original on the 3500, I forget. Other than that it's all been gone through, orange drop caps (I tried different sizes). All knobs on all guitars on 10. Same tone before and after string change.

The only notable difference is the 3500 has an earvana nut a previous owner installed. Other than that, it has a superior bridge.

I thought for a moment that maybe it could be the covers taking just a hair of tone away Vs the 2800 uncovered Duncans. But then the 2000 had GFS pickups with covers and it sounds fantastic.

So.... what do I attribute this to? Let me get my popcorn.....

[golem]

It's hard to know. If you've got the tools, you could measure the resistance on the original pots which are likely the wrong taper. @andrewsrea is always explaining audio taper vs linear but I consistently forget which one is supposed to be which (I assume audio is correct). But he is right that it makes turning down the vol/tone controls much less pleasing when the wrong pots are used. And I also know that if the pots are too dark it doesn't sound as good.

The Jazz Neck pickup is one of my favorite neck pickups.

[fatjack]

Could be wiring, pots,caps. Hell it could be the wood itself, e mineral content how high on the tree was it from that has been shown to contribute a bit to overall tone at times. I'm betting slight variance in the caps slightly lower or higher will movee the tone maybe muffle it.

[devdem]

Pots - may just measure those. Wouldn't be surprised if they were not right, but I like the easy-to-dial feel of these pots. Sometimes CTS pots can be a bit resistant (no pun...) to turn.

As I recall, it was for both pickups. I've got a set of uncovered SD '59's I may just drop in there and see if that does anything. I've got a box of pots too - will probably just rewire everything.

Anyhoo, I did read that covers can take a bit of sparkle off the sound of an uncovered pickup. May just be that. It's not bad, it's just noticeable when going from one guitar to the other.

[Partscaster]

I would swap the pups between 2000 and 3500 as a "quick" test.

[mozz]

You basically have 3 different sets of pickups. That's why they sound different. Taking the covers off are gonna sound different than covers on. Taper means nothing when on 10. To measure the pot resistance you need to unsolder the pickups.

[aullucci]

On the potential wiring issue, is it possible the Duncans in the 3500 are wired to coil split? I know my humbuckers are quieter in single coil mode. Maybe something like that?

[devdem]

You basically have 3 different sets of pickups. That's why they sound different. Taking the covers off are gonna sound different than covers on. Taper means nothing when on 10. To measure the pot resistance you need to unsolder the pickups.

The difference is like rolling the volume down to about 8 on the 3500 vs both the other 2 guitars, and the tone is also slightly muted. I checked out the wiring and pots last night - all good. The 3500 and 2800 both share a common SD Jazz neck pickup, though the Jazz on the 2800 is uncovered. So as close to apples-to-apples as possible.

I think it's just a matter of covered pickups vs uncovered and the cover effect taking away a slight bit of the high frequency. Odd though that the GFS pickups were chimey and bright, not muted at all. Or as noted, maybe that guitar is just a dark sounding guitar.

For grins, I may just pop the SD '59 neck and bridge (both uncovered) just to see how I like those pups in that guitar. I may cut a bone nut as well.

[Chocol8]

The GFS pickups are a different wind. The guitar body and neck does influence sound no matter how many people argue otherwise. Also, pickup height, caps, pots, bad wiring or solder joints, and other things could impact things.

[BatUtilityBelt]

Pretty much the whole guitar has the potential to change the way the strings vibrate or the pickups capture that motion or the rest of the electronics color the signal. If there were not innumerable ways to influence the signal, there would not be innumerable flavors of guitar parts available. Humbucker covers do influence the shape of the magnetic field, but that is just one of many possible causes.

I understand the interest in knowing exactly what is going on between them if you want to correct some aspect of a guitar's tone. But I usually find myself more interested in knowing the character of any given guitar and anticipating how it will handle what I intend to play on it (and the rest of the signal chain).

[devdem]

Pretty much the whole guitar has the potential to change the way the strings vibrate or the pickups capture that motion or the rest of the electronics color the signal. If there were not innumerable ways to influence the signal, there would not be innumerable flavors of guitar parts available. Humbucker covers do influence the shape of the magnetic field, but that is just one of many possible causes.

I understand the interest in knowing exactly what is going on between them if you want to correct some aspect of a guitar's tone. But I usually find myself more interested in knowing the character of any given guitar and anticipating how it will handle what I intend to play on it (and the rest of the signal chain).

Bingo.... it's all academic. The guitar is fine and plays and sounds great. As another person noted elsewhere: that's what amp knobs are for. I've got 2 different teles that fall into this same category. Just depends on how much time I want to spend goofing around.

[RockYoWorld]

From my understanding, the SD JB is hotter than the '59.

I have two LTD EC-1000's with slightly different pickups, bridges, and nuts (specs below). The uncovered JB pickup in the bridge sounds a little bit hotter and more aggressive than the covered JB in the bridge. The covered jazz in the neck seems to have higher output and a thicker (maybe muddier) tone than the uncovered '59. So, I'd imagine the '59 is substantially less hot than the JB.

Old, Red EC-1000
Pickups: covered SD JB + Jazz, .
Nut: Compensated nut
Bridge: TonePro bridge with some worn down saddles. standard (plastic?)

New, Blue EC-1000
Pickups: uncovered SD JB + '59.
Nut:standard (plastic?) nut
Bridge: Fishman piezo bridge

[andrewsrea]

From my understanding, the SD JB is hotter than the '59.

The covered jazz in the neck seems to have higher output and a thicker (maybe muddier) tone than the uncovered '59.

It is ironic how the builders design for a specific outcome which ends up only being true over the entire population of that model, because of variation in individual parts. From what I know, the '59 neck is made to be warmer and 'woodier' than the Jazz. You experience sounds opposite, perhaps due to capacitance caused by the cover.

I was told the only difference between a Jazz & '59 was A5 magnet strength. They both supposedly use the same bar magnets, which are charged differently. Otherwise, they were (back in the 80's) wound on the same machines the same number of times, same bobbins, same 42ga enamel coated copper wire, same steel used for the slugs and poles, same base plate, etc.

I haven't heard a '59 or Jazz neck that did not sound good.

[RockYoWorld]

From my understanding, the SD JB is hotter than the '59.

The covered jazz in the neck seems to have higher output and a thicker (maybe muddier) tone than the uncovered '59.

It is ironic how the builders design for a specific outcome which ends up only being true over the entire population of that model, because of variation in individual parts. From what I know, the '59 neck is made to be warmer and 'woodier' than the Jazz. You experience sounds opposite, perhaps due to capacitance caused by the cover.

I was told the only difference between a Jazz & '59 was A5 magnet strength. They both supposedly use the same bar magnets, which are charged differently. Otherwise, they were (back in the 80's) wound on the same machines the same number of times, same bobbins, same 42ga enamel coated copper wire, same steel used for the slugs and poles, same base plate, etc.

I haven't heard a '59 or Jazz neck that did not sound good.

I should start off by saying that they do both sound good, in my opinion. The guitar with the covered Jazz in the neck does have a strings that are months older than the other and the bridge and nut differences could also be playing in it.

Both pickups/guitars register the same amount of LED dots on the input of my Axe FX, but that's not the best resolution. I'd be better off recording direct into my audio interface and analyze that signal, but as mentioned, there are other variables at play and the sample size is one each. We're not gonna have any bold conclusions from that. This is just my personal end results on the two pups.

The covered jazz just has more frequencies to it or maybe pushes the amp models (both clean and distorted) more, giving it a wider tone. I like the uncovered 59 better than the covered Jazz when in humbucking mode but like the covered Jazz more than the uncovered 59 in coil tap mode. I also like how the uncovered 59 blends with the uncovered JB bridge better than the covered jazz and JB together.

Overall, I'm glad to have both options, though since they are very similar, I'm thinking of swapping the covered JB and Jazz to my Schecter Hellraiser that has Fishman Fluence Moderns in them because I currently have 2 EC-1000s with very similar pickups and 2 Schecter super strats that have the same pickups in them. I'm scared that I will miss the Fishman Fluence in the Schecter Hellraiser, though. Every time I think I'm gonna do the swap, I pick up the guitar and fall in love with it again.

[devdem]

To follow up on this little chapter....

I had a look at the SD's in both positions on the 3500 that seemed so quiet. Two issues, one self-inflicted.

When I reassembled after cleaning it a few years ago, I put the bridge pickup ring on backward such that the pickup tilted a bit. So I was missing part of my sound on that pickup.

After taking a closer look, I noticed all the pickup poles on both pickups had been screwed out quite a bit. I looked up a few youtube videos on setting pole height, re-adjusted the pickup heights, and now we have normal volume on both pickups.

So case solved, and now I know what a SD 59 neck and a Jazz neck sound like in 2 of my guitars. The covered and uncovered JB still sound a bit different in the 2 different guitars, but I'm happy with both.

[jam]

I may be a bit late to this party, but I wouldn't mind seeing a few pics of that 3500. Assuming that it really exists...

[devdem]

Hey Jam, will do. I'm purging some equipment so may put it on the chopping block. Got some meetings but will oblige with some pics shortly.