A Guitar And Gear Support Forum

Apologize in advance if this topic has been done to death. What I'm wondering is this: when you randomly place a finger on a note, do you INSTANTLY know which note it is (visually, not by sound, which is usually only those with perfect pitch). I'm not talking where you figure it out relative to an octave or open string, even if it takes a millisecond, but instantly. At least the naturals? I'm not talking about tones here, just about naming the fretted positions (if that makes sense).

I never had enough discipline to do this and trying to really force myself now. I have to just pick one note and find it everywhere on the board, at the same time taking note of octave patterns. Also I try to think of what's immediately up/down the string (D down from E, F-G up from E) and what's above/below on adjacent strings. And separately also trying to memorize certain frets, like 5th, so it's immediate, like the open strings. It's really taking me a while - it's easier on the E strings and A string is almost as easy, but after that I get slower. So I'm curious about everyone's experience with this.

I have to stop and think. For me, if I were to seriously try to do the learning it would be rote. I'd have to play scales while naming the notes until memorized them. Unfortunately that's the way I learn that sort of thing.

One instructor's approach...

original 2013 version


revised 2020 version

Lacking Talent wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:59 pm One instructor's approach...

Why couldn't I have done that 30 years ago? That is awesome! It is obvious that it's effective. Thank you.

i am almost certain there are notes on my fretboard.

Cool

I pretty much know the fingerboard from over 70 years of playing, although I was a lousy reader until I started playing bass, and funnily I can sight read faster on bass—I find that constantly reading new music is a good way, because it's not rote, you just learn the notes as they pop up … it has to do with associating interval jumps, scales, chord inversions and stuff like that with what you're hearing, and where your fingers are. But you knew that, right?

There's a android app fretboard trainer called RR Guitar. It gives you a quiz on the notes and it times you to see how many seconds it takes to answer. I usually do pretty good.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... n_US&gl=US

I have a difficult time understanding how anybody who has been playing guitar for any amount of time could not know every note on the fretboard.

It's like they're looking at the fretboard and saying, "There are six strings, and twenty two frets, which makes 132 notes! How am I supposed to remember all of them?"

No! No! No! There are only 12 notes, that's it! They repeat and form easily memorizable patterns with adjacent strings.

Everyone knows what it's like to be part of a group, whether it's a classroom, coworkers, congregation, whatever. Did you ever have a problem remembering the names of a mere twelve people? Or how about your favorite sports team. I'll bet you can name every player on the team. These really aren't difficult feats, are they? Not when you care enough to, and make the effort. Likewise with the fretboard . . . it's about caring, intimacy, and familiarity.

Think about this: The exact same 12 notes that are on the guitar are on the piano keyboard. They repeat in identical order. Outside of absolute beginners on the instrument you don't hear people talking about the difficulty of memorizing those 12 notes on the piano keyboard. A guitar string is no different than a piano keyboard going from any root to its octave. 12 keys, 12 frets. A string is like a keyboard with other keyboards running parallel to it a 4th interval higher (with the exception of the relation of the "G" and "B" string, with the later being adjacent to the former at a major 3rd interval).

These are fundamental concepts every guitar player should understand, along with intervals, scale construction, and chord derivation from those scales. Absent knowledge of these, one is at a severe disadvantage.

toomanycats wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:05 am I have a difficult time understanding how anybody who has been playing guitar for any amount of time could not know every note on the fretboard.

It's like they're looking at the fretboard and saying, "There are six strings, and twenty two frets, which makes 132 notes! How am I supposed to remember all of them?"

No! No! No! There are only 12 notes, that's it! They repeat and form easily memorizable patterns with adjacent strings.

Everyone knows what it's like to be part of a group, whether it's a classroom, coworkers, congregation, whatever. Did you ever have a problem remembering the names of a mere twelve people? Or how about your favorite sports team. I'll bet you can name every player on the team. These really aren't difficult feats, are they? Not when you care enough to, and make the effort. Likewise with the fretboard . . . it's about caring, intimacy, and familiarity.

Think about this: The exact same 12 notes that are on the guitar are on the piano keyboard. They repeat in identical order. Outside of absolute beginners on the instrument you don't hear people talking about the difficulty of memorizing those 12 notes notes on the piano keyboard. A guitar string is just like a piano keyboard. The fretboard is like a keyboard with other keyboards running parallel to it a 4th interval higher (with the exception of the relation of the "G" and "B" string, with the later being adjacent to the former at a major 3rd interval).

These are fundamental concepts every guitar player should understand, along with intervals, scale construction, and chord derivation from those scales. Absent knowledge of these, one is at a severe disadvantage.

Thank you for the stern rebuke, I deserve it. You're right. I'm making the effort now To be fair, keys on a piano look the same in every octave, each key "looks" a certain way in the context of other black and white keys. It's nothing like that on guitar. I even noticed with the above exercise that after I learned F everywhere through the 12th fret, once you shift to the frets above 12th, the lack of a 24th fret deprives you of another visual cue, making it a bit different.

t100d wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:18 am I pretty much know the fingerboard from over 70 years of playing, although I was a lousy reader until I started playing bass, and funnily I can sight read faster on bass—I find that constantly reading new music is a good way, because it's not rote, you just learn the notes as they pop up … it has to do with associating interval jumps, scales, chord inversions and stuff like that with what you're hearing, and where your fingers are. But you knew that, right?

I agree and not to argue with your lifetime of experience, for me I feel there's room for some basic rote memorization. It provides instant and permanent recall. It's like multiplication table, sure we could always work out the values, but it's just so much handier to "know" them instantly. I've tried learning to sight read on guitar, bass, piano and drums (and saxophone). Multiple tries. Definitely not going to try again, it's a great skill, but in my life it's just not realistic. So in lieu of that I think I'll do a bit of rote memorization.

One of these days I'll learn to play the guitar properly and I'll come back and share how I did it.

[mention]toomanycats[/mention] Slight disagreement here more like being in a room with 132 people with 12 names between them. Sure you only need to know the 12 names but place them with all the people.

Gear_Junky wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:50 am

toomanycats wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:05 am I have a difficult time understanding how anybody who has been playing guitar for any amount of time could not know every note on the fretboard.

It's like they're looking at the fretboard and saying, "There are six strings, and twenty two frets, which makes 132 notes! How am I supposed to remember all of them?"

No! No! No! There are only 12 notes, that's it! They repeat and form easily memorizable patterns with adjacent strings.

Everyone knows what it's like to be part of a group, whether it's a classroom, coworkers, congregation, whatever. Did you ever have a problem remembering the names of a mere twelve people? Or how about your favorite sports team. I'll bet you can name every player on the team. These really aren't difficult feats, are they? Not when you care enough to, and make the effort. Likewise with the fretboard . . . it's about caring, intimacy, and familiarity.

Think about this: The exact same 12 notes that are on the guitar are on the piano keyboard. They repeat in identical order. Outside of absolute beginners on the instrument you don't hear people talking about the difficulty of memorizing those 12 notes notes on the piano keyboard. A guitar string is just like a piano keyboard. The fretboard is like a keyboard with other keyboards running parallel to it a 4th interval higher (with the exception of the relation of the "G" and "B" string, with the later being adjacent to the former at a major 3rd interval).

These are fundamental concepts every guitar player should understand, along with intervals, scale construction, and chord derivation from those scales. Absent knowledge of these, one is at a severe disadvantage.

Thank you for the stern rebuke, I deserve it. You're right. I'm making the effort now To be fair, keys on a piano look the same in every octave, each key "looks" a certain way in the context of other black and white keys. It's nothing like that on guitar. I even noticed with the above exercise that after I learned F everywhere through the 12th fret, once you shift to the frets above 12th, the lack of a 24th fret deprives you of another visual cue, making it a bit different.

I didn't mean it as a rebuke of you personally, and I'm sorry if I came off sternly. Didn't mean it like that.

I agree that the keyboard is most definitely laid out more logically than the guitar fretboard, but that is because it is by design meant to exemplify Western musical theory. Regardless, the piano and guitar both utilize octaves divided into 12 equidistant tones, which we refer to as the chromatic scale. Looking at the white keys of a piano's keyboard from "C" to it's octave "C", the black keys allow us to explicitly see the series of whole steps and half-steps that make up the major scale. While it is not laid out so explicitly with the guitar, the exact same rules apply.

I guess that I've been playing for so long that it's sometimes difficult to remember what a mysterious thing the fretboard can be when first approached.

toomanycats wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:12 am I didn't mean it as a rebuke of you personally, and I'm sorry if I came off sternly. Didn't mean it like that.

I know and I said that tognue-in-cheek. And we all deserve it. When my friends and I started a "band" (a hobby band) in our teens, a few of us knew cowboy chords and how to strum and sing songs, but I was the one to pick up bass. Then I'd teach someone else bass parts and got into lead guitar. And I was upset that nobody else wanted to learn at all. For me, life just gets in the way.

toomanycats wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:12 am I agree that the keyboard is most definitely laid out more logically than the guitar fretboard, but that is because it is by design meant to exemplify Western musical theory. Regardless, the piano and guitar both utilize octaves divided into 12 equidistant tones, which we refer to as the chromatic scale. Looking at the white keys of a piano's keyboard from "C" to it's octave "C", the black keys allow us to explicitly see the series of whole steps and half-steps that make up the major scale. While it is not laid out so explicitly with the guitar, the exact same rules apply.

I guess that I've been playing for so long that it's sometimes difficult to remember what a mysterious thing the fretboard can be when first approached.

I know all that, but I think fatjack hit the nail on the head. It's one thing to understand, but it's quite another to instantly just "know" which note you're fretting, without referencing octaves or patterns. You might know this by now, from your experience, but you didn't just get there by knowing the chromatic scale, you did it by playing and I need to do more of that.

Ok, first off let me identify myself as a straight up amateur. And Lazy.

I learned to read music first by playing trumpet. So that got me to know the notes on the treble clef. Then I played Upright bass (both of these were in the public school system), so I learned the notes in the bass clef.

When I started playing guitar, I first learned chords, and I still consider myself mostly a rhythm guitarist, or accompanist and I read the chord names. When I learned CAGED I only learned the notes on the fretboard on the 5th and 6th strings A and E, (or is that the 1st and 2nd strings? whatever) because that was where the chord roots were.

I don't read notes for guitar, only bass but I still only know the bass fretboard up to the 5th fret. But you know what? For what I play, and my skill level, that's enough. Sure I have to think a bit (on bass) if I'm reading a line that requires a high C but honestly, for most of the stuff I play (church is the only place I play outside of my house), I only read the music on the first or second verses, and then play a line that I like that fits.

For my amateur, lazy status, once I know what key we're in, it's all intervals, and my ear works fine. I'm not knocking anybody that goes through the work to memorize the whole fretboard, but for me, it's just not worth the trouble (read pain and agony).

And I will say this, too, reading music and playing by ear are 2 different skills, and require you to coordinate different parts of your brain. I respect players who can do both OR either well. In the end, music is not a sheet of paper, or a keyboard layout nor a fretboard layout, music is the sound you make using any or all of those tools. And a wonderful thing it is to make Music!

https://www.musictheory.net/exercises

The fretboard note identification is a good way to pass time during zoom calls.

dabbler wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:57 am I learned to read music first by playing trumpet. So that got me to know the notes on the treble clef. Then I played Upright bass (both of these were in the public school system), so I learned the notes in the bass clef.

Yep, you got some good exposure there, I had no formal musical training whatsoever, just a buddy showing me a few cowboy chords (good thing he also showed me barred chords early on, so at least I developed that motor ability to play them and to recognize that they are moveable versions of open chords. Years later another friend taught me what the mysterious chord names meant (Em, Am, C, etc.) and the even more mysterious # and b (flat).

dabbler wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:57 am When I started playing guitar, I first learned chords, and I still consider myself mostly a rhythm guitarist, or accompanist and I read the chord names. When I learned CAGED I only learned the notes on the fretboard on the 5th and 6th strings A and E, (or is that the 1st and 2nd strings? whatever) because that was where the chord roots were.

Yes, it's similar with me - I started memorizing "root" (bass) notes on 6th and 5th strings so I could follow along on bass by watching what chords the guitarist was playing (obviously this doesn't work for real guitarists who actively use voicings other than cowboy chords).
My venturing into CAGED is connected with the book "Fretboard Logic". But I'm also trying to learn the other roots in chord shapes, not just the bass roots. I feel that book has a very good, methodical approach, assuming that one practices it rigorously. But I also feel that knowing every note will improve this.

dabbler wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:57 am And I will say this, too, reading music and playing by ear are 2 different skills, and require you to coordinate different parts of your brain. I respect players who can do both OR either well. In the end, music is not a sheet of paper, or a keyboard layout nor a fretboard layout, music is the sound you make using any or all of those tools. And a wonderful thing it is to make Music!

100% agree. I'll even say that reading and playing by ear are not just different. Classical performers are strongly discouraged from playing by ear - they almost have to be machines able to play what's written, like a MIDI file, yet then also add dynamics and emotion that makes it all human. So playing by ear is considered detrimental to this skill. I guess ability to read music is not at all detrimental to playing by ear, but that's more of an inherent ability, maybe not genetic, but usually possessed by people who grew up around musician parents. I had no musicians around me whatsoever. Even when I started learning, my goal wasn't to be a musician, it was to play songs at a bonfire.

I'm not particularly discouraged by what I lack. Anything and everything I do learn is beneficial - it's a nice hobby to have to keep sane.

Floridian FX wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:24 am https://www.musictheory.net/exercises

The fretboard note identification is a good way to pass time during zoom calls.

Good advice. Jeffrey Toobin should have claimed that he was just "oiling his fretboard" during his zoom call.

I certainly can't instantly and don't know that I care. I find it much more important to jump onto something that fits and sounds good. And that I do need to do in real time. Not perfect but if I'm going to spend more effort thats the skill that will pay off the better I get even with very diminishing returns.

I've been practicing for 2 days using the method posted by LT above and it's really helping me fill in the blanks. As I was doing it, I thought to myself: this is a bit like learning to type (with all fingers properly) for a software developer. I know lots of software guys who type with their 2 index fingers. This has zero to do with being a programmer, but boy is it a time saver if you type fast! It took me 2 weeks to learn to type around 25 years ago and I think it's a comparable effort and benefit.

I can see the note names across my neck. Sometimes needing quick pause. I dont tend to play with that in mind. I play the neck more in terms of positions relative to the key(s). To me , the exact note names could become a distraction on the fly. A bit like trying to identify my exact latitude and longitudinal changes when dancing. I identify with relative positions and changes more naturally.

Partscaster wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:52 am I can see the note names across my neck. Sometimes needing quick pause. I dont tend to play with that in mind. I play the neck more in terms of positions relative to the key(s). To me , the exact note names could become a distraction on the fly. A bit like trying to identify my exact latitude and longitudinal changes when dancing. I identify with relative positions and changes more naturally.

I agree 100%, I never thought that I'd be thinking about these notes while playing. But aside from playing we might be learning parts, figuring out songs, coming up with a solo or riff, I think that's when it may be useful. Just analyzing what someone else did is learning. That's my reason for wanting to learn this

mozz wrote:There's a android app fretboard trainer called RR Guitar. It gives you a quiz on the notes and it times you to see how many seconds it takes to answer. I usually do pretty good.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... n_US&gl=US

Thanks!

I dont know them well at all but understand I should.
I know the nut to the 12th on the 6th and 5th strings well but its spotty after that, beyond finding the octave based on the 5th of power chords.