How important are staggered magnet poles on tele pickups?

[Gear_Junky]

Obviously there's plenty of great teles out there without staggered magnets just as there's lots of guitars where the magnets don't match the string spacing exactly. I'm just curious as to how noticeable this is (the staggered heights)? Is it more important in the bridge vs. neck?

All input from experience is welcome

[mozz]

Thought only very early teles had staggered bridge magnets?

EDIT: 10 different answers so i ain't gonna believe any of it


EDIT: Initially, they were flush with the top but by 1955 they protruded and were staggered like the slugs on the new Stratocaster pickups.
EDIT: The Telecaster received staggered pole pieces in the 1960s.
EDIT: From 1952 to 1956 they were all flat-pole, which means that yes, if you absolutely want that very specific early-1950s string balance on a Telecaster, it's pretty much required to use flat-pole pickups.
EDIT: These are Leo Fender’s first Telecaster pickups. Magnets: Alnico 3 or 5 rod magnets, flush poles
EDIT: Pre-1955 , flush poles
EDIT: Post-1955 staggered with raised D and G


EDIT: I really don't think the raised 2 center magnets are considered staggered, they are there to match the radius of the fretboard.

[golem]

If you compared a flat-pole pickup to a staggered-pole pickup wound the same way, you would get a little more presence (like a Fender Amp presence knob), a little more bass and a little more overall output from the flat-pole pickup. Another way to think about it is that a flat-pole pickup will generate a little more output without putting more wire on the pickup coil. Adding more wire changes the frequency response, usually by losing some treble and gaining some bass. If you are already used to using staggered-pole pickups, you may find that you will need to turn the bass down slightly on the amplifier because with a flat-pole pickup you will no longer have to make up for weak low strings.

In most cases the flat-pole pickup will give you a better string balance. The high E won't get buried in the mix like a staggered-pole pickup can. You will also notice that the two low strings are louder than a staggered-pole set, and the G string does not overpower the others.

On a staggered-pole pickup the low strings rarely overpower any amp, but they can also sound somewhat subdued or weak. The volume on the G string tends to dominate all others. If you have previously played using only staggered-poles and you don't notice any discrepancies with string-to-string volume balance, you have learned to compensate for them. If you decide to try a flat-pole set, it may take some time to adapt but once you get familiar with the sound, you'll find they work better in most cases than a staggered-pole design. For example, all Teles up until around 1956 had flat-poles — and no one ever comments that their 1952 Telecaster has bad string balance. Also, most Telecasters, Jazzmaster, Mustangs and Fender bass guitars have historically had flat-pole pickups. On Gibson guitars no one ever staggers the adjustable poles as much as Strat pickups.

source: https://www.lollarguitars.com/flat-pole ... gered-pole

[Gear_Junky]

In most cases the flat-pole pickup will give you a better string balance. The high E won't get buried in the mix like a staggered-pole pickup can. You will also notice that the two low strings are louder than a staggered-pole set, and the G string does not overpower the others.

Thank you! For some reason I thought the opposite - I thought the staggered heights were intended for better balance, but then there are so many radiuses these days. Anyway, this helps me immensely! Thank you.

[Chocol8]

They were intended for better balance, but first off, they were designed when the G strings were wound and necks were all 7” radius, and second, lord knows what they were smoking, because they were still far from balanced.

[andrewsrea]

I agree with prior posts and will elaborate.

I think what [mention]golem[/mention] was saying, is that the low E and A can get lost and the D & G can sound strong in a mix with a staggered magnet set up. In 440 tuning, the fundamental of the D (D-4) G (G4) & B (B4) get into the vocal range and the human ear favors those tones. So even though the staggered magnets presents a more 'electrically balanced' note, your ear hears it as louder. Which is why Fender made the B string magnet the smallest and lowest. So to Golem's point, no-stagger sounds more balanced and to [mention]Chocol8[/mention] 's point, trying to compensate usually has other outcomes.

Human hearing is non linear in a bunch of ways.

That said, some prefer the stagger. One because a lot of popular recordings had it (Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Mark Knopfler, etc.). I think also because it naturally helps a guitar it into a rock band scenario. The low E and A sometimes competes with the Bass guitar.

I like both and to Golem's point, I suspect my finger approach may compensate.

[golem]

I agree with prior posts and will elaborate.

I think what @golem was saying, is that the low E and A can get lost and the D & G can sound strong in a mix with a staggered magnet set up. In 440 tuning, the fundamental of the D (D-4) G (G4) & B (B4) get into the vocal range and the human ear favors those tones. So even though the staggered magnets presents a more 'electrically balanced' note, your ear hears it as louder. Which is why Fender made the B string magnet the smallest and lowest. So to Golem's point, no-stagger sounds more balanced and to @Chocol8 's point, trying to compensate usually has other outcomes.

Human hearing is non linear in a bunch of ways.

That said, some prefer the stagger. One because a lot of popular recordings had it (Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Mark Knopfler, etc.). I think also because it naturally helps a guitar it into a rock band scenario. The low E and A sometimes competes with the Bass guitar.

I like both and to Golem's point, I suspect my finger approach may compensate.

Well unfortunately my point is actually Jason Lollar's point.

[mickey]

Well unfortunately my point is actually Jason Lollar's point.

Don't worry. If you don't tell him, we won't either.

[Gear_Junky]

I agree with prior posts and will elaborate.

Awesome info there... and I'm back on the fence

[andrewsrea]

I can tell you for a Tele, I prefer flat. What I built for my '69 Thinline RI is flat-tall Alnico 3 magnets, at about 7.2K DCR. This was to copy an early 50's lap steel pickup that I came to investigate, which were the ones than many top players put into their Telly bridge positions. The neck pickup in that Telly is stock, flat, Alnico 5.

For my Strats, I like staggered, but I cheat. I build a set called Billy B (after my best friend, who has the first set). The bridge and middle are vintage staggered, the neck is modestly staggered and uses different strength rod magnets to approximate the stagger. I've done a variation on this, to where I do that for the middle pickup, where the player feels a staggered magnet interferes with their picking. For me, I pick just ahead of the bridge or over the neck and over the middle is rare.

To me, staggered sound like Knopfler, Gilmore, Hendrix, Ed King, etc.

[Gear_Junky]

Thank you, everyone. I ended up ordering two pickups from GFS, not a "set". They were solder leads (not quick connect), so a bit cheaper. Ended up with flat poles, but just because other parameters all converged.

The neck has a higher DCR vs. bridge, but I instinctively figured that I could compensate with adjustment. And after doing some reading I think it won't be as mismatched as might appear. Neck uses 43 gauge wire ("overwound" and reportedly 9 kOhm DCR) vs. bridge's 42 gauge (reportedly 7.2 kOhm). Since DCR is not really a measure of "output" on differently constructed pickups, I figure I have a good chance of them being "just right" or close to that. We'll see.

I always take GFS Jay's ridiculous superlatives with a metric ton of grains of salt, but based on descriptions I thought these were the pickups I wanted anyway - I wasn't trying to go the cheapest, but also didn't want to overpay for such a cheap guitar. And I have yet to be disappointed with their pickups. I generally ignore all of the "hot" or "hotter" pickups, I found out "hot" does not equal "tone" for me.

https://www.guitarfetish.com/Overwound- ... _7923.html
https://www.guitarfetish.com/Repro-1950 ... p_653.html

[Gear_Junky]

In my search I came across some pickups with mixed magnets (dubbed "hybrid") - i.e. Alnico II slugs under the three treble strings and Alnico V slugs under the three bass strings. I won't be buying that, but it's a curious enough concept.

[mozz]

I think Duncan makes some like that, called 5-2's? Why does Guitar Fetish not have reviews on their products page?

[Gear_Junky]

Why does Guitar Fetish not have reviews on their products page?

Great point! Their YT videos have comments disabled as well. Not that every manufacturer or company has reviews on their sites.

[golem]

In my search I came across some pickups with mixed magnets (dubbed "hybrid") - i.e. Alnico II slugs under the three treble strings and Alnico V slugs under the three bass strings. I won't be buying that, but it's a curious enough concept.

I'm nearly certain that [mention]andrewsrea[/mention] either does this or actually magnetizes some of the polepieces different amounts (or both?) with some of his pickups. Obviously, he'll correct me if I'm wrong but it's fun what he can do with custom winds.

Anyhow, an example of Duncan pickups like you're talking about are used by Yvette Young and the Prestige Talmans that look similar (i.e., the ones with strat pickups but not the teles).

[andrewsrea]

The neck has a higher DCR vs. bridge, but I instinctively figured that I could compensate with adjustment. And after doing some reading I think it won't be as mismatched as might appear. Neck uses 43 gauge wire ("overwound" and reportedly 9 kOhm DCR) vs. bridge's 42 gauge (reportedly 7.2 kOhm). Since DCR is not really a measure of "output" on differently constructed pickups, I figure I have a good chance of them being "just right" or close to that. We'll see.

They look like a good choice for my taste. The bridge sounds like what you might find in the 50's originals. The neck also sounds like what you'd get with the 1950 thru 1964. They were wound with 43ga wire and typically came in at 9K to 10.5K.

Together, they should not sound mismatched. For the original 50's Teles, it has to do more with the resonance peak and magnetism of each magnet (including the standard Tele bridge that mounts the pickup), as well as the proximity to the strings. The bridge pup being typically closer to the strings than the neck.

Let us know what you think of them when you get them installed!

[Gear_Junky]

They look like a good choice for my taste. The bridge sounds like what you might find in the 50's originals. The neck also sounds like what you'd get with the 1950 thru 1964. They were wound with 43ga wire and typically came in at 9K to 10.5K.

Together, they should not sound mismatched. For the original 50's Teles, it has to do more with the resonance peak and magnetism of each magnet (including the standard Tele bridge that mounts the pickup), as well as the proximity to the strings. The bridge pup being typically closer to the strings than the neck.

Let us know what you think of them when you get them installed!

Thank you! That's what I figured after doing some reading too, so sometimes it's good to go on instinct. We'll see. I didn't want expensive pickups for a sub-$100 guitar, but at the same time didn't want their more generic pickups either. This seemed like the sweet spot. I like the "vintage correct" components bit, even if it's just psychosomatic.

[stacks]

I can say that my Fralin P90 in the neck of one of mine sounds much better with the pickup low and the poles adjusted higher.

[Gear_Junky]

I can say that my Fralin P90 in the neck of one of mine sounds much better with the pickup low and the poles adjusted higher.

Alas, there's no adjusting poles on tele pickups, at least not the ones I ordered

[mickey]

I didn't want expensive pickups for a sub-$100 guitar, but at the same time didn't want their more generic pickups either.

You & I look at that very differently my friend.
The less I spend for the guitar itself, the more left over to spend on pickups.
My $60 SX STL-50 has $120+ Duncan pickups in it. I'm happy!

[Gear_Junky]

You & I look at that very differently my friend.
The less I spend for the guitar itself, the more left over to spend on pickups.
My $60 SX STL-50 has $120+ Duncan pickups in it. I'm happy!

I know, Mickey. You have excellent taste in pickups and guitars. And your logic is sound. In my case it's part of the "sport" - how good can I get it sounding on the cheap?

I do break this rule sometimes, if I can score pickups at decent prices. I.e. I have HS Filtertrons in my WNO-630 "Whino" and my red SJM. I can't prove it, but I suspect that between them and TV Jones it's more a matter of preference than quality in terms of tone. Some people prefer TV, others - Gretsch (we're talking current, not vintage). There's a member here trying to exchange his TV Classic for a Gretsch, you know, you've commented on his thread.

[mickey]

You & I look at that very differently my friend.
The less I spend for the guitar itself, the more left over to spend on pickups.
My $60 SX STL-50 has $120+ Duncan pickups in it. I'm happy!

I know, Mickey. You have excellent taste in pickups and guitars. And your logic is sound. In my case it's part of the "sport" - how good can I get it sounding on the cheap?

I do break this rule sometimes, if I can score pickups at decent prices. I.e. I have HS Filtertrons in my WNO-630 "Whino" and my red SJM. I can't prove it, but I suspect that between them and TV Jones it's more a matter of preference than quality in terms of tone. Some people prefer TV, others - Gretsch (we're talking current, not vintage). There's a member here trying to exchange his TV Classic for a Gretsch, you know, you've commented on his thread.

Funny you should mention your Whino because I've just spent the past half hour or so playing mine.
It has been a few months since it has been out of its case & I had sorta forgotten how sweet it is to play.
It has T.V. Jones pickups in it, Classic Plus (br) and Supertron (n) and is wired like a G6122 with a "mud" switch.
I'm getting ready to do a video for my brother & I had planned to use the Gretsch 5622 but at the moment I'm thinking Whino.

[Gear_Junky]

I guess another reason is that I've had a few experiences with name-brand pickups, namely Gibson Classic 57 (which I had in my Epi LP Custom cherry burst that I had in the 90's), Seymour Duncan "Custom Custom" humbucker in bridge of my HSS Yamaha Pacifica, SD Quarter Pounders in my Jazz basses (I had a fretted and fretless standard MIM in the 90's) and also had a P-bass with the q-pounders. The guitar pickups were nice but expensive, the bass made me realize that I don't like enlarged magnets and hot pickups anyway.

So when I first tried GFS pickups, it was in my cheap LP copy, which I still have. It is very similar to SX GG1 (and has the same model number - Brownsville GG1). Stock pickups were mud but I knew the guitar had potential, it was heavy, resonant and pleasant to play, well made. So I got GFS Dream 180's (after lots of reading) and wired them up to have coil splitting and in/out of phase switch. That guitar is so versatile and toneful! Honestly, it could cover everything I'd want musically, it could easily be "one and only" guitar for me, if I wasn't a guitar junkie

My other reason is that I don't think my skill level really allows me to fully appreciate that "extra" that the likes of TV Jones pickups offer. But I certainly hear/feel enough in my upgrades from generics. It's kind of like with wine - more people will appreciate a jump from $3 to $15 bottle, than a jump from $20 to $100 and beyond. I am very average there.

[andrewsrea]

I didn't want expensive pickups for a sub-$100 guitar, but at the same time didn't want their more generic pickups either.

You & I look at that very differently my friend.
The less I spend for the guitar itself, the more left over to spend on pickups.
My $60 SX STL-50 has $120+ Duncan pickups in it. I'm happy!

I agree with your concept!

I believe that all components of a guitar add to the tone. However, I believe 'tone' is more sensitive to some components than others. Lot of folks agree that most of your tone is in your fingers and ability, so I put playability high and have found some inexpensive guitars to have excellent playability. The next in my list of tone contributors (we'll leave amps and speakers out of this) is what you pointed out - pickups.

Caveat is, that pickups are subject to hype and the law of diminishing returns.

For example: my neighbors gave me a Yamaha EC112 entry level super strat guitar when they moved. It was a wreck. I worked the neck, frets, action, trem-bridge, intonation and put in (2) of my AMI single coils and a Fender Shawbucker I had laying around. For <$70 my cost and a few hours work, this would compete with new guitars in the $600 price range. And it could be a musician's workhorse.

So yes - the right inexpensive guitar + a decent set of pups!

[Gear_Junky]

Ah, yes, those yammies are hidden gems. I had a Pacifica 412, I think, my first new and decent guitar. Great fretwork, great attention to detail, pickups were the only issue - good, but just lacked interest. That's the one I had SD "Custom Custom" in. I know a guy, who is a better player than me, who still uses mine (his band mates bought it from me to gift to him). He told me recently that he could now afford any new guitar, so he went and tried gretsches, ricks, gibsons and just went back to the yammie due to the neck profile. That's what he said, I am not trying to say it's better than all those guitars.

Every guitar after that I bought because I WANTED TO, not needed it.

...that pickups are subject to hype and the law of diminishing returns.

So yes - the right inexpensive guitar + a decent set of pups!

This! A very important principle to grasp in life, along with the Pareto (80/20) "rule". You mentioned hype and I would even say superstitions. When you see certain classic pickups on eBay going for twice or more the price of a new TV Jones equivalent (or perhaps better), you realize that we are past diminishing returns and in pure hype zone

I think that spending one's life on chasing "keef tone" or "woman tone" or whatever, is rather miserable. Of course, if it makes someone happy - by all means! I'm not entirely rational, instead of buying one decent stock guitar and practicing PLAYING, I have a handful of guitars that all need "work" and preoccupied with researching and ordering components. But I will say: it keeps me sane and happy. I am just realistic that I won't make all that much growth as a player, I'll never be EVH, Jimi, Setzer, nor do I care to be. I'll never even be as good as I would like to be.

But for me the goal is to get every guitar close to its best, within reason.