FRFR Musings...

[Mossman]

Since I pre-ordered the NuX MG-30, I've been researching FRFR cabinets off and on. My first reaction was: "Oh no Lucy, those speakers are too 'spensive!", and summarily decided I didn't need one.... and I still feel that way. But occasionally, I would find myself wandering back into that world, and eventually came across the Headrush FRFR 112, which costs $350 (about half of what most FRFRs I've seen go for):

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... ar-cabinet

As the name implies, it's got a 12" speaker, and a RIDICULOUS power rating of 2,000 watts peak and 1,000 watts continuous. That's probably typical industry BS, but even still, the thing is mighty loud. WAY louder than I need. Besides, I was just going to plug into the clean channel of the Super Champ X2, which is super clean and flat. I mean, it's still going through a digital pre-amp and out through tubes, which will color it a little, but how much is that going to matter to me? If it sounds good, it sounds good, and I can always plug the MG-30 into my studio monitors if I want to get real persnickity about it. They are full range and flat response speakers themselves. And in terms of playing live, I don't really see how an FRFR speaker is any different from a powered PA speaker. Through my research on forums, I've discovered that some people get upset whenever somebody refers to a PA speaker like a QSC K10 (a popular choice among the modeling crowd) as an FRFR, but really... what's the difference? PA speakers have flat response and reproduce the full frequency range. They're not really cheaper than FRFRs, so what's the deal?

Anyway... I was about to shut down my research, content with my conclusion that I don't need an FRFR, when the devil appeared on my shoulder and said: "You can use the Headrush for BASS too, you know..."

Then it was GAME ON again!

The wheels started turning in my head... The MG-30 has bass amp models and IRs, and if I could use that with the Headrush for both bass and guitar, AND gig with it (if that day ever comes again), I could trim down my rig considerably, and free up some much needed space in Studio Moss. I could sell my two bulky bass amps and my Zoom B3. That would more than cover the cost of the Headrush. I'm never selling the Super Champ X2, though... That amp is way too sweet, now that it has a good speaker in it.

[RockYoWorld]

I bought 2 EV powered speakers for multi use: small PA rig, jam sessions at home, monitors if I ever need one, and an "FRFR cab" if I ever needed one for one of my Fractal systems live. I don't need any of those things for my main gig. If I ever joined a band where you really want an amp and cab on stage for whatever reason, I don't think I'd want to try to use one of these kinds of speakers like that. I would probably shell out for one of the cab look-alike units on the market, whatever the best deal is. But that's just me, personally.

[Mossman]

I bought 2 EV powered speakers for multi use: small PA rig, jam sessions at home, monitors if I ever need one, and an "FRFR cab" if I ever needed one for one of my Fractal systems live. I don't need any of those things for my main gig. If I ever joined a band where you really want an amp and cab on stage for whatever reason, I don't think I'd want to try to use one of these kinds of speakers like that. I would probably shell out for one of the cab look-alike units on the market, whatever the best deal is. But that's just me, personally.

I'd shell out for a used, empty cab, and put the FRFR inside. That sounds like the best deal to me.

[mozz]

For us in our late 50's and above, what the heck is a FRFR? Without looking it up, flat response frequency reproduction? Almost all speakers are colored, you will always see a bump at the resonance peak and that is often tried to be smoothed out by the cabinet. A good old pair of flat studio monitors (Altec, JBL,EV) would sound lifeless and dull to most people if you played a familiar song to them.

[Mossman]

For us in our late 50's and above, what the heck is a FRFR? Without looking it up, flat response frequency reproduction? Almost all speakers are colored, you will always see a bump at the resonance peak and that is often tried to be smoothed out by the cabinet. A good old pair of flat studio monitors (Altec, JBL,EV) would sound lifeless and dull to most people if you played a familiar song to them.

FRFR stands for Full Frequency Flat Response. As far as I know, they're designed specifically for use with modelers, and are supposed to be as transparent as possible. But unless I'm missing something, we already had speakers that were designed to be transparent and have a flat response and full frequency reproduction. I'm not sure why people get salty when someone refers to a PA speaker as an FRFR.

I don't know what you mean about studio monitors sounding dull and lifeless, though. Flat frequency response just means they don't hype any particular frequency range (like bass), giving you a level sound stage to apply your EQ. I've played guitar through my Zoom G5n to my monitors, and use them for listening to music, and they sound great to me. They only sound flat if I set my EQ flat.

[mozz]

Well a lot of speakers are purposely boosted at certain frequencies, either the speaker themselves, the cabinets, or the amplifier driving them. Sounding dull usually means that they are flat and people don't like flat, they like eq's and exaggerated freqs. I would expect a PA speaker to be flat and would be the same as a FRFR speaker, but marketing sees a new category. If you get 2 sets of speakers/amps, and 1 is slightly louder than the other, 95% of the people will pick the louder set as better sounding.

A lot of older studios had more than 1 pair/brand of speakers to listen to the mix through. I keep telling the guy at work, take your digital mix/song and listen to it in your car, if it sounds way different than the music you listen to, people won't like it, play all instruments yourself or get good musicians, and try to exactly duplicate any song from 50's-80's, you can learn a lot about soundstage and placement in the mix.

[andrewsrea]

^ 100% agree!

[golem]

I have the Headrush FRFR 108 that I was lucky enough to get included with a Helix LT I bought recently. People do talk about using PAs instead of FRFR. It's definitely something that one can do. I've heard that it sounds a bit different than FRFR but I think the details of how were lost on me. These Headrush FRFR speakers are, in fact, based on Alto PA speakers. Presumably they're not exactly identical but no one that I know of has dissected it to check.

[Chocol8]

FRFR stands for full range flat response. They are neither, but that is at least a stated goal.

The term is used to differentiate a full range speaker from a guitar speaker when used with a modeler. Specifically, when using speaker/cab emulation you want to play back through an FRFR solution and not a guitar cab.

No matter what people say, they are mostly PA speakers with limited changes for the guitar market. The Headrush products were the first to actually market themselves with the “FRFR” designation but they are simply rebranded Alto PA speakers with the microphone pre-amp removed from the inputs. Other units that preceded them and most on the market have not adopted the term FRFR, but they really are the same thing.

There are a few like the Atomic CLR that were designed ground up for guitar modeling use, and things like the Kemper Kabinet that are specific to their own digital ecosystems. The good ones are expensive for a reason.

None of the products on the market are flat, and few are truly full range though they are close enough for guitar use. When you have a separate tweeter, you introduce issues if it is not coaxial, but also trade offs if it is. Just like any other speaker, PA speaker, monitor etc. There is no “best” or “best value” that will please everyone.

Personally I am mixed. To get good tones out of my FRFR solutions* requires a bit of time tweaking EQ parameters. It is MUCH easier to plug the modeler into an amp powering a real guitar cab. The real cab is of course stuck with its single tone, so the real advantage of FRFR is the ability to use cab sims to go from a Celestion Green Back sound to a Jenson sound back to an Alnico Blue sound etc. If you don’t really need that flexibility, I would suggest sticking with guitar cabs.


* I currently have and use a CLR and a Celestion F12-x200 diy box, plus headphones. I have used a few PA speakers and monitors but wasn’t satisfied. That may have been the hardware or it may have been my inability to dial them in.

[Rollin Hand]

I have actually heard of people getting great results out of the TC Electronic BAM200 as a power amp for modeling.

Personally, I have a set of Edifier speakers that I run my 11Rack through, and they work for me, even if they are a little bassy.

[mickey]

Sounds to me like FRFR speakers are an added revenue stream by just rebranding existing speakers?

[Chocol8]

Sounds to me like FRFR speakers are an added revenue stream by just rebranding existing speakers?

Pretty much. Most modelers with cab emulation are kicking out a signal that is supposed to sound like a mic’ed cab just like you would hear on a recording. Therefore, you want to play it on a speaker that is just like one you would use to play recorded music. If playing at lower levels in a small home studio, you would want studio monitors. If playing to a big crowd, PA speakers. To listen to yourself on stage you might want a monitoring wedge. For quiet late night practice maybe headphones. To jam on a camping trip, maybe a small Bluetooth speaker with an Aux input (cabled, too much lag to use wireless). Any speaker that works for playing recorded music works for a modeler.

All of those things are “FRFR” even though they are not marketed that way. The term FRFR was originally a descriptive term and not a marketing term. Headrush somewhat corrupted that, but really it was silly consumer demand. They sold way more of those things to guitarists than they have the Alto versions.

[Rollin Hand]

Sounds to me like FRFR speakers are an added revenue stream by just rebranding existing speakers?

Pretty much. Most modelers with cab emulation are kicking out a signal that is supposed to sound like a mic’ed cab just like you would hear on a recording. Therefore, you want to play it on a speaker that is just like one you would use to play recorded music. If playing at lower levels in a small home studio, you would want studio monitors. If playing to a big crowd, PA speakers. To listen to yourself on stage you might want a monitoring wedge. For quiet late night practice maybe headphones. To jam on a camping trip, maybe a small Bluetooth speaker with an Aux input (cabled, too much lag to use wireless). Any speaker that works for playing recorded music works for a modeler.

All of those things are “FRFR” even though they are not marketed that way. The term FRFR was originally a descriptive term and not a marketing term. Headrush somewhat corrupted that, but really it was silly consumer demand. They sold way more of those things to guitarists than they have the Alto versions.

FWIW, they also sell those speakers as electronic drum speakers.

[Chocol8]

And keyboard speakers

[Rollin Hand]

Seems like a trend.

[Mossman]

Sounds to me like FRFR speakers are an added revenue stream by just rebranding existing speakers?

That was my thinking, which is why I started this thread. They seem to be the same thing, but FRFR speakers are new to me. Whenever I saw people object to PA speakers being referred to as FRFR speakers, they they would just say: "They're not the same thing!". They never elaborated on how they're different.

But it's not like manufacturers are cashing in on the FRFR designation. They don't cost any more than a similarly spe'd PA speaker... In fact, the Headrush is considerably cheaper.

[deeaa]

Our lead guitarist has an AxeFXII Ultra he uses at home and for recording, and we've been trying to get it into band playing use (for now he's been using a H&H head and 2x12" cab).

Modelers usually sound terrible thru normal guitar speakers, even with speaker emulation off, but it sounds good into our PA. However, it's not the same at all to play thru PA speakers, since I use a classic Marshall with a 2x12" so it kinda is like BOOM versus chirp chirp tonewise. The Axe sounds great, but it just doesn't have the punch and presence of a loud guitar thru PA speakers which also work as vocal speakers.

So I've been looking into options, and now the best candidates would seem to be to buy some fullrange single 12" speakers and put those into a spare cab he has. But which ones...it's a really difficult decision. I believe he now ordered a Jensen fullrange 12" as a test, and we'll see how that works. If it seems good, he can either buy another one or something slightly different like the new Celestion fullrange speaker.

It seems to me the top end reproduction varies wildly on these. Some have tweeters, which to me seems unnecessary for guitars, and then the Celestion 100 something goes only up to 7,000Khz. The Jensen goes to 14,000.

At any rate, it is quite a quagmire it seems to firstly program the Axe and the footswitch, and then to make the sounds pleasing for recording and PA systems, while getting an equally punchy sound from your personal monitor/practice session 2x12". I mean, we've spent hours on end dialing it in in with a laptop and everything, and it's always like really really promising, but at least without a punchy 2x12" FRFR monitor it is just too feeble, too driven, or too whatever.

That's probably the reason I will stick with my Marshall...nothing to tweak and adjust ad nauseam, it sounds like it sounds, and that's it.

But for the lead guy it'd give so much more in terms of different sounds for different songs and leads we will keep on trying to incorporate it into our use.

[littlebadboy]

I used to have a Boss GT-100 plugged into the power amp in of my Bandit. It sounded great. However, it sounded different when I record it into my DAW via usb as an interface. I also tried a power amp + PA cab and it sounded better and closer to my recorded sound. However, the set up was too big. Then, I tried a Headrush FRFR112. I was pleased with the setup being just my GT-100 into the FRFR cab. But, the FRFR112 was boomy and was wondering if the smaller FRFR108 would do the trick. It sounded better and I was more than pleased with the sound and simplicity of the setup. It sounded so good enough for me to try out the newer modelers. I ended up with a Headrush Gigboard. After trying the wonderful IRs loaded into it and out the FRFR108 cab, it was just a eureka moment for me that I bought a second FRFR108 for stereo, and gosh... I wet my pants.

However, I don't gig anymore. I am content with my studio monitors nowadays. They are FRFR too anyway except for being near-field. If you gig with multi-effects or modelers, I would recommend the FRFR setup. If you just play at home and have studio monitors already, then it should suffice.

[Rollin Hand]

I actually read something interesting in a review of a Boss Katana 100 Mk II -- it makes a great FRFR speaker if you plug into the power amp.

[deeaa]

I actually read something interesting in a review of a Boss Katana 100 Mk II -- it makes a great FRFR speaker if you plug into the power amp.

Yes, that makes sense. Actually pretty much any modeler type combo could be used as FRFR monitor with good success. I'm using an old Line6 Spider speaker as one myself.

Our guitarist just got a Jensen fullrange speaker for his 2x12' to be used with the AxeFX2...waaaayyy better than a guitar speaker, like I told him it would be.

He's gonna buy another fullrange speaker but a little different one as second speaker for the cab.

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[RockYoWorld]

Our guitarist just got a Jensen fullrange speaker for his 2x12' to be used with the AxeFX2...waaaayyy better than a guitar speaker, like I told him it would be.

He's gonna buy another fullrange speaker but a little different one as second speaker for the cab.

Since the cab is passive, what is he using for the amplifier?

[deeaa]

Our guitarist just got a Jensen fullrange speaker for his 2x12' to be used with the AxeFX2...waaaayyy better than a guitar speaker, like I told him it would be.

He's gonna buy another fullrange speaker but a little different one as second speaker for the cab.

Since the cab is passive, what is he using for the amplifier?

Not exactly sure of the brand, but it's a solid state stereo PA amp basically, 2x200W or so, with volume and general "resonance' or something like that knob for each channel. I gather it's designed for the purpose, basically a clean uncolored PA amp, but has an extra knob to add some resonance or "warmth" if it feels too digital I suppose. Seems to somehow thicken the sound a bit. All I know is it wasn't very expensive and generally has had good reviews for this purpose.

The cab is wired in stereo.

We tried it in stereo with a guitar speaker along with the FRFR speaker, and it wasn't all bad. But will be better with two fullrange speakers....the stereo effect adds astonishingly much to the sound.

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[RockYoWorld]

We tried it in stereo with a guitar speaker along with the FRFR speaker, and it wasn't all bad. But will be better with two fullrange speakers....the stereo effect adds astonishingly much to the sound.

My patches are all in stereo with similar amps hard panned left and right. I feel it really makes the sound big and great, especially since I'm the only guitarist in the band. I always wondered what I'd do for a patch if I had to go down to stereo. Just summing the patches to mono doesn't sound nearly as good, probably due to phasing. When we practice and only have mono gear, I just run one side, which sounds better, but can be a little weird with some of my stereo delays.

I like the idea of a 2x12 cab run in stereo... Or just run the Left to the 2x12 and the PA can still get a stereo send... All of this is hypothetical for me, so it doesn't really matter lol.

[deeaa]

Yep I didn't think it would be such a difference in sound running the 2x12 as stereo, but it really is. With just one guitarist in the band I'd always use stereo wherever possible.

But with two guitars it's more of a problem mostly as you have to pan the guitars pretty hard anyway.

I have to look into it more, maybe he can have rhythm patches set to mono in the AxeFX and lead patches in stereo.

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