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A US COURT RULING COULD CHANGE THE NATURE OF ONLINE MARKETPLACES SUCH AS REVERB, AMAZON AND EBAY

https://guitar.com/news/industry-news/a ... ketplaces/

The ruling calls into question how much responsibility they have for the items sold through their platforms.

A recent court case in California has raised questions about the future of buying and selling instruments, amplifiers and any other number of items from online marketplaces such as eBay, Reverb.com and Amazon.

Last month, a Californian state appeals court ruled that Amazon can be held liable in California for defective products sold through third-party vendors using its marketplace. The ruling came after a San Diego woman purchased a laptop battery from a third-party seller through Amazon, which subsequently caught fire, leaving her with third-degree burns. She sought compensation from the company, which argued it was not responsible for the defective product – it was simply an intermediary marketplace, not meaningfully involved in the transaction.

However, that was not the view taken by the court – which ruled that since Amazon stored the battery in its warehouses, took payment for it, delivered it, and gathered fees, it shared in the liability.

Analysis by Music Trades notes that this isn’t the first case of its kind, but the court is the first to rule against Amazon. It goes on to say that if the ruling holds up under appeal it will change the legal status of online marketplaces – no longer will they be neutral platforms for other sellers. Instead, they will be responsible for every item sold through their platforms.

This change could have drastic effects, especially for a retailer like Amazon. What started in 1994 as an online bookstore now lists an enormous amount of separate products, especially when considering third-party vendors. No single retail business on the planet has ever had to commit to monitoring the quality and safety of 350 million discrete items, and doing so could incur significant costs for Amazon.

For musical instruments, Reverb.com is the go-to second-hand marketplace for many. It would also feel the effects of a change like this, albeit in a smaller way. Reverb itself isn’t a retail behemoth like Amazon – but its parent company, Etsy, has a broader purview than just music gear, meaning stakes are still high. Music Trades says to “expect a protracted legal fight, with all the uncertainty that entails.”

Practically speaking, Acoustic instruments don’t have any inherent safety risks, and electric guitars don’t often feature high-voltage circuitry or high-capacity batteries. Amplifiers are a different case, however, as they are plugged into the mains and can house potentially deadly voltages.

If the California ruling really is the first sign of legal change for online marketplaces, sites like Reverb could have to take extra steps to ensure the safety of every single piece of equipment sold on its platform – potentially meaning higher commission rates, and a more involved selling process.

I dunno about Reverb or eBay but with outfits like Amazon where the seller sends the item to Amazon, Amazon stores the item in their warehouse & ships the item to the buyer;
I've long felt they have "some" product liability. I hope the courts agree with me.

mickey wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:07 am I dunno about Reverb or eBay but with outfits like Amazon where the seller sends the item to Amazon, Amazon stores the item in their warehouse & ships the item to the buyer;
I've long felt they have "some" product liability. I hope the courts agree with me.

They did on the above case. eBay also has the warehouse deal when you use Ebay shipping. It goes from you, to their warehouse, then to the buyer.

Perfect Stranger wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:38 am

mickey wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:07 am I dunno about Reverb or eBay but with outfits like Amazon where the seller sends the item to Amazon, Amazon stores the item in their warehouse & ships the item to the buyer;
I've long felt they have "some" product liability. I hope the courts agree with me.

They did on the above case. eBay also has the warehouse deal when you use Ebay shipping. It goes from you, to their warehouse, then to the buyer.

I wasn't aware of that. So I guess I would include them.

I stopped using eBay years ago when they wouldn't list an item for sale unless I accepted PayPal for payment.

But what would that do to the prices of tort pickguards?
But seriously, my question to a reasonable observer (which generally excludes any court in Cali): how are these companies NEGLIGENT when acting as storage depot to re-ship items? But then I am neither a tort lawyer, nor a huge fan of these companies, especially Amazon (which operates at a loss anyway and its purpose is not profit, obviously).

In times like these one has to think on his feet. So... can anyone recommend a laptop battery?

I imagine those like Amazon will try to deflect some/all of any gained liability back to seller with new seller agreement details.

There's way too much money to be made in e-commerce to let a few pesky laws get in the way. Either they will find a way to adjust or new players will come to the table with a different business model, that's the nature of capitalism. And in the end, the costs will get passed on down the line just like they always do, but we always have alternatives - no one is forcing me to buy more guitars on Reverb or more stuff I don't really need on Amazon

I'm pretty sure this will be overturned on appeal. It would overturn too many existing laws of commerce if implemented. It isn't just e-commerce, it is essentially any transaction with any intermediary or shipper - i.e. most business and consumer transactions.

Houblues wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:10 pm I'm pretty sure this will be overturned on appeal. It would overturn too many existing laws of commerce if implemented. It isn't just e-commerce, it is essentially any transaction with any intermediary or shipper - i.e. most business and consumer transactions.

If it was the ca 9th circuit it is pretty likely to be overturned. They get overturned about 70+% of the time.

I like the ruling on this one. Amazon plays fast and loose with responsibility. While many of us know how to tell the difference, some people can't determine which products are sold by 3rd parties, and hence what controls (or lack) there are for quality assurance. It makes me a bit paranoid at times to the point of triple-checking what consumables I buy via Amazon, but I am much more careful than most. So it is protection of the general public against the greed of the richest capitalist in the country. 3rd party sellers are only getting worse.

Houblues wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:10 pm I'm pretty sure this will be overturned on appeal. It would overturn too many existing laws of commerce if implemented. It isn't just e-commerce, it is essentially any transaction with any intermediary or shipper - i.e. most business and consumer transactions.

I agree with this. I mean that would affect logistics companies, as well. Do you then hold the 18 wheeler company responsible too, they hold and transport, so they keep the items as long as the warehouse does sometimes, especially if shipped across country.

Its not like these "Venues" can't afford the liability costs. If they try and raise their already ridiculous fees and storage charges sellers will bail en masse. And that may not be such a bad thing either. Those "sites" have run amok with little accountability for over 20 years.

LightWingStudios wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:07 pm Its not like these "Venues" can't afford the liability costs. If they try and raise their already ridiculous fees and storage charges sellers will bail en masse. And that may not be such a bad thing either. Those "sites" have run amok with little accountability for over 20 years.

Where will they bail to? Lots of sellers there are re-sellers - running a business. For many types of products a site like eBay offers a lot more exposure than just running a website and google ads (which also all costs money and time).

I am not saying that companies like eBay are immune from doing stupid things, but they do have lots of statisticians and actuaries and economists and lawyers to figure these things out.

Sellers won't bail, they'll raise prices and eventually market forces will determine if the new equilibrium is untenable (it could be, but it won't be a hard exodus, it will be a gradual dying on the vine). Aside from just selling odd used stuff I've achieved eBay Power Seller status 3 separate times in 3 different types of product. I am not bragging, mind you, it's nothing but a tedious job with long hours, which subtly digs you in deeper and deeper. A race to the bottom.

I occasionally still do opportunistic buys on eBay, but if I want to sell something, I always explore local options (Craigslist) or maybe online-direct (like maybe for guitar stuff I'd trade or sell/buy with fellow forumites. I'd rather pocket the extra money or make the price more attractive than pay the fees and shipping charges, which are out of hand.

Oh, my other rant has been that eBay and other online resources have ruined pawn shops and used music stores (for buyers). Over and out

P.S. As an occasional shopper on eBay I've also noticed that there seem to be fewer private sellers unloading their used unwanted stuff and almost predominantly resellers. That might be anecdotal, but that's my perception. Too much hassle to bother with small stuff, people just sell on Craigslist (no fees).

Probably like McDonalds had to label Hot Hot Hot around a cup of coffee, you’ll now need to tape a label that says danger danger danger around any guitar amps You’re selling now

"CAUTION: this site may sell items known to the state of California to pose all kindsa risks so ya might as well just curl up and die, mkay"

JimyTheAssassin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:44 pm Probably like McDonalds had to label Hot Hot Hot around a cup of coffee, you’ll now need to tape a label that says danger danger danger around any guitar amps You’re selling now

They really need to put Cholesterol and Saturated Fat labels on their cheeseburgers...as Long as we're going full nanny state

Tonray's Ghost wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:20 pm

JimyTheAssassin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:44 pm Probably like McDonalds had to label Hot Hot Hot around a cup of coffee, you’ll now need to tape a label that says danger danger danger around any guitar amps You’re selling now

They really need to put Cholesterol and Saturated Fat labels on their cheeseburgers...as Long as we're going full nanny state

But not before they disclose the wood pulp content and its exact proportion

Gear_Junky wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:40 pm

Tonray's Ghost wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:20 pm

JimyTheAssassin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:44 pm Probably like McDonalds had to label Hot Hot Hot around a cup of coffee, you’ll now need to tape a label that says danger danger danger around any guitar amps You’re selling now

They really need to put Cholesterol and Saturated Fat labels on their cheeseburgers...as Long as we're going full nanny state

But not before they disclose the wood pulp content and its exact proportion

I'm waiting for the solid Mahogany Chocolate shake with a maple syrup cap

Tonray's Ghost wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:14 pm

Gear_Junky wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:40 pm

Tonray's Ghost wrote: ↑Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:20 pm

They really need to put Cholesterol and Saturated Fat labels on their cheeseburgers...as Long as we're going full nanny state

But not before they disclose the wood pulp content and its exact proportion

I'm waiting for the solid Mahogany Chocolate shake with a maple syrup cap

Not at McD's prices you won't. All you'll get is McBasswood, McPoplar and maybe McNato and McSapele