A Guitar And Gear Support Forum

"Man Know thyself" is a Delphic maxim attributed to Socrates. Though it can often be burdensome and downright uncomfortable, I have more or less tried to live by this credo, believing that the of possibly of self-overcoming it allows outweighs the cognitive discomfort associated with honestly recognizing that, "Hey, I may not be so great as I think," or, "I fall short in this regard," or, "I don't deserve to feel so satisfied in this particular respect, because I can do better." In a word, knowing yourself in a brutally honest sense, without self-deception, bereft of any false facade, opens up the possibility of progress, self-betterment, and advancement.

And so I finally come around to the point of this thread, which is alluded to in its title, and that is delusional musicians. I'm talking about individuals who, for whatever reason, and through whatever psychological mechanism, believe that they are far more competent than they in fact are. I know that some of you folks here know exactly the type of person I'm talking about.

Let me give you just one example. I know this guy who will occasionally, during a guitar solo in front of an audience, lift his guitar over his head and sloppily pluck a couple strings as their belly hangs out below their shirt. Now to me, that's the type of thing one does to convey the message, "Hey, I'm so good that I'm going to handicap myself . . . and I can still kill it." But the trick only works if you are in fact that good. Otherwise you just look like a delusional moron and people in the audience snicker.

The man who "knows himself" wouldn't continue to do such ridiculous things. Rather, he would take a truthful reckoning of his current skill on the instrument, find that it is wanting, perhaps suffer some pangs of remorse over what a fool he has made of himself, and then sublimate that pain into a newfound commitment to increase his practice time on guitar.

A special category of the delusional musician are those who sing using a "teleprompter." Of course I don't mean an actual teleprompter, but rather a phone, iPad, tablet, or whatever attached to their mic stand. These misfits probably buy this "gear" on Sweetwater or Amazon. Nothing says, "I'm a douche" quite like using one of these things to read lyrics in front of an audience. What it really broadcasts, in bold caps, is "I'm phoning it in," "I'm not really committed to this art I'm presenting to you," I haven't even taken time to peruse the material long enough to commit it to memory."

But what is worse than the delusional, are the delusional and manipulative. However, that's the topic for another thread.

Rotfl. Yes, I look for reasons I am wrong rather than reasons I am right. Then instead of letting it hurt, it becomes an opportunity to get better.

Btw, it would also be acceptable to lift the guitar if he's terrible and he's making a self aware joke of being terrible.

PsychoCid wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:12 pm Rotfl. Yes, I look for reasons I am wrong rather than reasons I am right. Then instead of letting it hurt, it becomes an opportunity to get better.

Btw, it would also be acceptable to lift the guitar if he's terrible and he's making a self aware joke of being terrible.

Yes, self deprecation is definitely tolerable, and there is always a degree of this with myself. I really do loathe myself and relish any opportunity to poke sharp barbs into my fat, false, inflated ego. But the person who is pumped up like an enormous ballon, and isn't aware of their own error of self perception . . . that's what I'm talking about here.

toomanycats wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:07 pm
A special category of the delusional musician are those who sing using a "teleprompter." Of course I don't mean an actual teleprompter, but rather a phone, iPad, tablet, or whatever attached to their mic stand. These misfits probably buy this "gear" on Sweetwater or Amazon. Nothing says, "I'm a douche" quite like using one of these things to read lyrics in front of an audience. What it really broadcasts, in bold caps, is "I'm phoning it in," "I'm not really committed to this art I'm presenting to you," I haven't even taken time to peruse the material long enough to commit it to memory."

I have only had one band experience, and never pmayed live, but, as the singer,I needed my lyric sheets. I flat out did not really have time to commit to learning those lyrics.

Also, Axl Rose used teleprompters for years...and that was his job, not just something done on weekends.

I got a kick out of seeing Weezer do "Africa" on Jimmy Kimmel with a laptop on a chair in front of Rivers Cuomo.

Yup, way too many of them. The musicians I really appreciate don't seem to have a sense of self at all. It seems that getting into music just for the love of music can keep the ego out of it entirely. Those are the folks I love to work with.

Rollin Hand wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:16 pm

toomanycats wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:07 pm
A special category of the delusional musician are those who sing using a "teleprompter." Of course I don't mean an actual teleprompter, but rather a phone, iPad, tablet, or whatever attached to their mic stand. These misfits probably buy this "gear" on Sweetwater or Amazon. Nothing says, "I'm a douche" quite like using one of these things to read lyrics in front of an audience. What it really broadcasts, in bold caps, is "I'm phoning it in," "I'm not really committed to this art I'm presenting to you," I haven't even taken time to peruse the material long enough to commit it to memory."

I have only had one band experience, and never pmayed live, but, as the singer,I needed my lyric sheets. I flat out did not really have time to commit to learning those lyrics.

Also, Axl Rose used teleprompters for years...and that was his job, not just something done on weekends.

I got a kick out of seeing Weezer do "Africa" on Jimmy Kimmel with a laptop on a chair in front of Rivers Cuomo.

That's gotta be fat Axl your'e talking about. Axl definitely didn't use a teleprompter at the Ritz in 88. I'd almost bet that I could sing all the lyrics from Appetite for Destruction, front to back, every song, just sitting here from memory.

the bass player in my old band with whom i shared vocal duties would litter the practice room floor with crazily hand-written lyric sheets - be they his own, for a cover, or something i wrote. he'd usually try to fix them to his pedal board in some way at first. then at one point he had a little music stand off to the side he'd keep some on. but eventually they'd just end up all over the floor. he would occasionally drag one or two to a gig. personally i felt like for a 45 min - 1 hr set of mostly originals and maybe two or three covers, memorizing the lyrics was a manageable task, but i guess his method didn't bother me as much as made me chuckle/shake my head. his delusions lay elsewhere...

for the guys who do the 3 hr long cover sets (including requests, etc.), i get the prompter. beats the hell out of dragging around a big three ring binder of laminated printouts (which i still occasionally see).

agree on all points when it comes to hot doggin' on stage

What is the purpose of loathing though?

I don’t know. I have enough to worry about myself. I really don’t go out of my way to find fault in others. Life’s too short.

I guess I don’t judge my (perceived) successes against others failures.

I had just over two weeks to learn the lyrics to 75 songs when I first joined my band. I got pretty good at memorizing songs fairly quickly as a necessity with those guys, who habitually handed me sheets to a new (to us) cover song 20 minutes before a set.

To this day, I can hear a song once and be able to quote most of the lyrics back to you at the end of it. It drives the wife nuts because I can't remember anything else with anything even resembling that degree of precision.

As for the musician delusion syndrome, just don't start shit ya can't finish (or back up).

I know lots of things about myself. Just like your big-bellied friend, my indifference can be appalling to others.

I have no idea what 95% of my favorite 200 songs are about and can only mumble along with most of them - yet I can sing Gin and Juice (the Gourds' version) acapella. I cant spell accapella and it doesn't bother me.

I need a whole book of sheet music to get through our 50 three-chord songs because I'll miss the bridge even though I've played it 200 times. I'll still miss it because a squirrel ran by or I'm pondering why Cleveland has a beeping Don't Walk sound at it's crosswalks if nobody (even the blind, I assume) pays attention to them.

I've never taken the time to learn a solo note-for-note and MIGHT watch a YouTube video to approximate a lick or phrase, but I'll dissect four ultimate-guitar.com posts to construct an identifiable-yet-easy-to-play version - and then I'll change the key if it has too many F's in it. I hate F's as much as I fear bridges. I'm also guilty of poorly-punctuated, run-on and over-hyphenated sentences (see above).

So, yeah. Your plump buddy and I have alot in common.






*and I will continue to spell "a lot" as one word for the rest of my life because it sounds and looks correct to me.

Sometimes I'll begin a sentence with "and," too. No I won't, but I was on a roll.

I agree with the guitar over the head point as being the mark of the delusional. But I don't agree with your point about lyric (or chord) sheets.

Loads of top class professional singers and musicians use prompters. It's actually a mark of their professionalism.

I watched this Christy Moore gig on TV the other day. Its folk rather than rock so perhaps different rules apply. Nevertheless Moore is a hugely popular artist over this side of the pond who gigs relentlessly. Even though he has sung and played the same songs thousands of times he still has his folder of tabs and lyrics laid out in front of him.

Nobody would accuse Christy of not being a consummate performer and professional.

Okay, I have some responses to the points raised above.

This isn't about judging one's own "perceived" successes against other's failures. You see, that would require being delusional about oneself, which runs contrary to my main point: There are standards of excellence; people who are self-aware can honestly critique themselves against that standard; people who are delusional are incapable of doing the same. Without such standards of excellence, and individuals who can self-correct in an efforts to strive for achieving that level of accomplishment, there would be none of the things of great value in a culture. There would be no great cathedrals, no great books, no technology, no great athletes, no symphonies, no great rock albums, and certainly no great guitar players.

I have no interest in going out of my way to find fault in others. But when somebody openly advertises their faults in a manner that is impossible to ignore, and which actually draws attention to and highlights the fact that they are delusional, I feel that it's fair game for discussion. The fact is, delusional people like that, while they serve a comic purpose, and certainly provide an example of what not to do, actually hurt the culture at a deeper level. It's a necessary corrective to call such people out. A worthwhile society needs examples of excellence, must revere and award excellence, must cultivate excellence, whether it be for the glory of God as in the theistic scheme, or for the glory of mankind as in the humanist scheme. The normalization of delusional buffoons that has occurred in our culture is an extremely alarming phenomenon.

Regarding the point about reading off a teleprompter, paper, cue card, or whatever . . . yeah, go to the Bayreuth Festival and watch the musicians in the orchestra performing Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen, and you will indeed see them with sheet music in front of them; or Tommy Dorsey's band, they too used sheet music; or a top 40 band playing a lounge and taking requests, they too often use written notes. Does this mean that any of these are not real musicians? Of course not. But I guess I didn't qualify the type of music I was specifically referring to, though the reference to a guy playing the guitar over his head should have been recognized as an homage to Hendrix, thereby signifying that the music at issue here is blues/rock.

So to be specific, blues music and rock music is played from ones heart and soul . . . and loins now that I think about it. The music and words must be internalized, deeply personalized, and channeled during performance to the audience. When playing this type of music there is an expressiveness one is only capable of achieving once you have mastered both the memory component and the technical execution part of the equation to the point where you need not think about them, which then frees up the expressive part of your heart/mind/brain to throw out pure emotion to the audience. Maybe some people here understand what I'm talking about. You don't think about what the next word is, or the next lick, but they just come out of you. Kinda a Zen thing. It just happens.

So I'm guessing a music stand with an accompanying human page turner is "out"?

Don't be so judgemental. Music is about entertainment. It is about the audience not the people playing the music. For me a musician is someone who entertains the audience while making some music. If they need something to help them do that then what is wrong with that? Recording is different from playing live. Then the technical aspects are more important but the end result still has to be entertaining.

I think what you are getting at is the difference between an accomplished artist and an imitating or aspiring artist. The accomplished artist does what he does because it does come from inspiration (to the degree it comes TO him, as opposed to THROUGH him, which might be the better description for a real artist).

The imitator/aspire-er will always be copying to some extent until they are fully realized in their own capabilities. This level of performer faces the challenges of trying to reach beyond his current grasp, and also suffering the criticism from being in that territory. The person playing "over his head " may be doing it from inspiration, because he thinks it will entertain, or perhaps because he mistakenly thinks it is expected. But in any case he is criticized because someone else has done it previously, and better. The first guy to do it did it against a background of no standard or expectation, so he got an automatic pass.

In some ways it is analogous to the person who plays music for the wrong reasons, such as just to attract women. They may have no talent to begin with. I remember guys from my teen years who I was convinced should just give it up. But they persisted and I found over time that some of them became truly good musicians. I have to admire the result regardless of my impressions of their motives.

In short - To eventually have good musicians we must first put up with less than good ones.

P.S.
But it is also a matter of Point of View. I'm speaking from a mostly Sociological point of view. But the discussion is taking place on a musicians forum. As such, it seems fair to ask the question "As musicians, do we want to be That Guy?"

As to personal preferences, I too have an aversion to inauthenticity and antics. Exhibit 1 - Hall and Oates '80's stage show, with distracting prancing. But they did evolve...

Bichep,inpincement and rotar surgery

toomanycats wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:35 am I have no interest in going out of my way to find fault in others. But when somebody openly advertises their faults in a manner that is impossible to ignore, and which actually draws attention to and highlights the fact that they are delusional, I feel that it's fair game for discussion.

I guess that's where I would differ. There are a lot of messed up people in every walk of life in this world. And they have more opporutinity than ever to share their "views" than they ever have. And to be honest - whether or not you are consciously going out of your way to find fault in others, you indeed did just that by starting this thread. Certainly anyting is fair game for discussion within forum guidelines, but at the end of the day you are still calling someone ( or a "type of person" ) out for their actions/faults/views.

I'd also suggest that no one is "impossible to ignore". I ignore a lot of people these days.

tlarson58 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:46 am I know lots of things about myself. Just like your big-bellied friend, my indifference can be appalling to others.

I have no idea what 95% of my favorite 200 songs are about and can only mumble along with most of them - yet I can sing Gin and Juice (the Gourds' version) acapella. I cant spell accapella and it doesn't bother me.

I need a whole book of sheet music to get through our 50 three-chord songs because I'll miss the bridge even though I've played it 200 times. I'll still miss it because a squirrel ran by or I'm pondering why Cleveland has a beeping Don't Walk sound at it's crosswalks if nobody (even the blind, I assume) pays attention to them.

I've never taken the time to learn a solo note-for-note and MIGHT watch a YouTube video to approximate a lick or phrase, but I'll dissect four ultimate-guitar.com posts to construct an identifiable-yet-easy-to-play version - and then I'll change the key if it has too many F's in it. I hate F's as much as I fear bridges. I'm also guilty of poorly-punctuated, run-on and over-hyphenated sentences (see above).

So, yeah. Your plump buddy and I have alot in common.






*and I will continue to spell "a lot" as one word for the rest of my life because it sounds and looks correct to me.

Sometimes I'll begin a sentence with "and," too. No I won't, but I was on a roll.

get out of my head!

toomanycats wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:09 pm

Rollin Hand wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:16 pm

toomanycats wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:07 pm
A special category of the delusional musician are those who sing using a "teleprompter." Of course I don't mean an actual teleprompter, but rather a phone, iPad, tablet, or whatever attached to their mic stand. These misfits probably buy this "gear" on Sweetwater or Amazon. Nothing says, "I'm a douche" quite like using one of these things to read lyrics in front of an audience. What it really broadcasts, in bold caps, is "I'm phoning it in," "I'm not really committed to this art I'm presenting to you," I haven't even taken time to peruse the material long enough to commit it to memory."

I have only had one band experience, and never pmayed live, but, as the singer,I needed my lyric sheets. I flat out did not really have time to commit to learning those lyrics.

Also, Axl Rose used teleprompters for years...and that was his job, not just something done on weekends.

I got a kick out of seeing Weezer do "Africa" on Jimmy Kimmel with a laptop on a chair in front of Rivers Cuomo.

That's gotta be fat Axl your'e talking about. Axl definitely didn't use a teleprompter at the Ritz in 88. I'd almost bet that I could sing all the lyrics from Appetite for Destruction, front to back, every song, just sitting here from memory.

How fat was Axl in 1991?

www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-199 ... y,amp.html

Brian Johnson also used one.

Hope you guys enjoy this. Don't judge him. Give him a trophy. Of course he's good, that arena of cheering fans tells you that. The important thing is that they're being entertained.

toomanycats wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:22 pm Hope you guys enjoy this. Don't judge him. Give him a trophy. Of course he's good, that arena of cheering fans tells you that. The important thing is that they're being entertained.

Or we could just ignore him too. People can only get in your head if you open the door for them.

Kerry Brown wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:32 am Music is about entertainment. It is about the audience not the people playing the music. For me a musician is someone who entertains the audience while making some music.

i would have a much harder time defining the word musician. so much of my favorite music (hell, art) has never considered the audience. it's always been about the artist(s) creating and expressing themselves, often out of necessity. the audience is a by-product

i guess that's why the cover band thing has never appealed to me

i will agree with TMC that the best music comes from the heart and not the head

toomanycats wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:35 am But when somebody openly advertises their faults in a manner that is impossible to ignore, and which actually draws attention to and highlights the fact that they are delusional,

Oh, I thought it would be assumed that the fact I took the stage at all was delusional.

Being humans and being delusional have gone together since that first cave man told his friend. "hold my beer while I outrun that sabertooth tiger" If it wasn't so built into our dna it would have been stamped out long ago. Now we subsidize and mostly elect the delusional so there must be something we like about it? If we all really "knew" ourselves we would have a mass suicide. And probably rightly so. I think I run about 15% delusional, only part of that musical but I feel pretty damn superior as I watch a sold 1/3 running about a 80% delusion. Problem is we don't let it kill them anymore.