A Guitar And Gear Support Forum

Heard today that Floriduh is looking at adding a $200/year surcharge to EV's when you renew your tags.
$200/year is what they figure the average Floriduh driver currently pays in state gasoline tax.
Guess they've got to make it up somewhere? Bet Floriduh won't be the last state!

The things that are paid for by gasoline taxes are not going away so EV vehicles will have to take up the slack. I am shocked it is only $200 per year.

The Beatles were right, if you take a walk they will tax your feet.

mickey wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 6:23 pm Heard today that Floriduh is looking at adding a $200/year surcharge to EV's when you renew your tags.
$200/year is what they figure the average Floriduh driver currently pays in state gasoline tax.
Guess they've got to make it up somewhere? Bet Floriduh won't be the last state!

Also the insurance industry adjusts their quotes to reality not hype or mandates.

The only fair thing to do is a mileage tax, but they won't do that because that won't allow them to pull in more money than before. I guarantee my 3500-4000 miles a year that I drive is having effectively zero effect on the roads here...

Well PA is trying to pass $290/year. I think that's reasonable considering those vehicles weigh more than a regular car and gas tax here is 61c/per gallon.m

We've got to pay for shared infrastructure. I'm surprised fact that they weren't taxed sooner.

golem wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 9:18 am We've got to pay for shared infrastructure. I'm surprised fact that they weren't taxed sooner.

I guess it took a while for legislators to realize they wouldn't be paying any gasoline tax?

Incidentally the gas tax in Floriduh is $0.24 per gallon plus federal gas tax.

I wouldn't doubt if the feds step in and authorized an electric utility road tax on ALL electricity sold, to entice EV purchases.

Congress appropriated $7.5B for building EV charging stations yet none have been built. None in two years since the money was approved. I repeat, NONE. They better do better with the billions they collect in EV fees or we'll all be walking.

tonebender wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:28 pm Congress appropriated $7.5B for building EV charging stations yet none have been built. None in two years since the money was approved. I repeat, NONE. They better do better with the billions they collect in EV fees or we'll all be walking.

Don't y'all have horses? Find a Amish buggy somewhere.

Sold the farm and horses Mickey. We only have iron horses now and they require gasoline.

they should tax them based upon the weight of the vehicle and the miles driven

a Hummer EV (9,000lbs...really???) or Tesla Cyber Truck (~6,900lbs) that weighs far more than my 1 ton truck (5500lbs with me in the cab) should have to pay more per mile since I pay more per mile for the gas I use

Not to mention the tax credits that buyers can get already. Missing revenue must be restored. Thre only other alternative would be to hit the manufacturers who will in turn raise retail prices to recoup it anyway. A'int no free rides

While sparky cars might be ideal in some environments, usage situations. I cannot see driving one in Western Canada.
You lose up to 40% of your juice in cold weather, and it takes way more to keeps things moving, and to keep your interior
habitable comfy. Suddenly your 400 KM range becomes 180. I'm 400KM away from the nearest major city, and I have yet
to see my first charging station, anywhere.

I've heard of people long stretches in an uncomfortablyd cold car, just to gain the extra 10 km to make it to safety
Stuck by the roadside up here at -20C on a lonely stretch up here, where there are MANY,
quickly becomes a life or death situation and this could be four months out of the year. How about how much
energy is used on A/C in warmer climes?

After the five year lifespan of your batteries, look into the replacement cost. I was selling cars a few years back.
KIA had of the best warranties in the business but the Niro batteries were only warrantied for 4 years, not the 5
years on the rest of the vehicle, and replacement batteries were something like six grand just for the parts.
Techs basically had to take apart the whole car to install new batteries so add another three thou in labour,
and probably a week to get your car back.

Look at the stats on second purchase of electrics. If they do buy an electric, how long did the first one last?
People are just ditching and getting another. That disposable car can't be friendly to the environment long term.


I expect the tech and the designs may improve better over time,
but until then I am all in on I.C.E. power

TVvoodoo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 1:55 pm While sparky cars might be ideal in some environments, usage situations. I cannot see driving one in Western Canada.
You lose up to 40% of your juice in cold weather, and it takes way more to keeps things moving, and to keep your interior
habitable comfy. Suddenly your 400 KM range becomes 180. I'm 400KM away from the nearest major city, and I have yet
to see my first charging station, anywhere.

I've heard of people long stretches in an uncomfortablyd cold car, just to gain the extra 10 km to make it to safety
Stuck by the roadside up here at -20C on a lonely stretch up here, where there are MANY,
quickly becomes a life or death situation and this could be four months out of the year. How about how much
energy is used on A/C in warmer climes?

After the five year lifespan of your batteries, look into the replacement cost. I was selling cars a few years back.
KIA had of the best warranties in the business but the Niro batteries were only warrantied for 4 years, not the 5
years on the rest of the vehicle, and replacement batteries were something like six grand just for the parts.
Techs basically had to take apart the whole car to install new batteries so add another three thou in labour,
and probably a week to get your car back.

Look at the stats on second purchase of electrics. If they do buy an electric, how long did the first one last?
People are just ditching and getting another. That disposable car can't be friendly to the environment long term.


I expect the tech and the designs may improve better over time,
but until then I am all in on I.C.E. power

Ahh..brings back memories of my old 351 '70 Mustang. Running the heater in 95 degree summer heat to keep the radiator from boiling over...we've come full circle.

The batteries in EVs are like the cartridges in a home printer. When you need new ink cartridges it is cheaper to buy a new printer.

tonebender wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:14 am The batteries in EVs are like the cartridges in a home printer. When you need new ink cartridges it is cheaper to buy a new printer.

if the manufacturers actually cared about EVs being properly renewable, they would make the batteries easily replaceable (the whole point the the "skateboard" chassis...

Make the rest of the vehicle worth keeping 10+ years like it should, and treat it like bottle refund when you purchase trhe car, a portion comes back to you.

Otherwise we are just creating a bunch of waste since there is barely a secondary market for the cars after the initial warranty period of the batteries.

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023 ... raveyards/

honyock wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 3:21 pm

tonebender wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:14 am The batteries in EVs are like the cartridges in a home printer. When you need new ink cartridges it is cheaper to buy a new printer.

if the manufacturers actually cared about EVs being properly renewable, they would make the batteries easily replaceable (the whole point the the "skateboard" chassis...

Make the rest of the vehicle worth keeping 10+ years like it should, and treat it like bottle refund when you purchase trhe car, a portion comes back to you.

Otherwise we are just creating a bunch of waste since there is barely a secondary market for the cars after the initial warranty period of the batteries.

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023 ... raveyards/

image.png

I think the Vinfast sales/subscription model is supposed to be something like that, though the way it looks, you never really own the battery. https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/vinfas ... ained.html

I'm not ready for an Hammerhead Eagle i-Thrust quite yet.

Personal opinion here: EVs are not all the way there yet. The charging infrastructure needs to get better across North America, and the charging needs to get faster. At this point, if we had to replace our van, I would suggest the Sienna hybrid to my wife.

The other thing is that people get so caught up on range most people in cities don't need it. Something that gets you 125 miles and has some kind of range extender would be fine. Outside of cities, hybrids would work. The new Dodge Ram hybrid fits with this -- battery powered with an inline-6 to act as the range extender.

Battery costs will come down as adoption increases and new tech comes on line. You can buy lithium packs for older hybrids now and install them yourself if you're handy.

And yes, I still want to fix up an old car or Jeep that runs on gas.

Rollin Hand wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:40 am Personal opinion here: EVs are not all the way there yet. The charging infrastructure needs to get better across North America, and the charging needs to get faster.

In the US specifically, infrastructure is definitely an issue. I started a new job 2 years ago for the US division of a global company HQ''d in Norway. As a result I've travelled there several times and just got back from a 2 week trip. One thing you immediately notice there is that everything seems to be electric - trains and buses, cars. Most people heat their homes with electric heat too, there is very little natural gas infrastructure in place. Much of this is a result of the large amount of Hydroelectric power they have most certainly.

But the Norwegians definitely love their electric cars, and they are very quick to let you know that they do The cold doesn't seem to be an issue for them, and one really nice benefit is that you get instant heat ( or AC ) in an electric car as you don't have to wait for the engine/coolant to warm up. They have charting stations literally everywhere you go - gas stations, most workplaces, public parking lots, etc. I rode with several of my co workers on the last trip in a couple of different Teslas, a VW and a Mercedes - I don't remember all the models but all of them were electric.

I think most of Western Europe is ahead of us on this front, but they mostly also have nationalized infrastructure. I think that is the biggest hurdle/obstacle that the US will need to overcome - the politics of the whole thing. I don't want to start a discussion about that here though, it's just the nature of the beast.

@uwmcscott Don't forget the difference between the driving distances between here & there. On this side of the pond 800 miles seems to me like a typical day's drive while 800 km would be a helluva long drive in one day over there.

mickey wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:47 pm @uwmcscott Don't forget the difference between the driving distances between here & there. On this side of the pond 800 miles seems to me like a typical day's drive while 800 km would be a helluva long drive in one day over there.

I was actually surprised how many people commute significant distance by car over there. Certainly a lot of people ride the train or bus, but even within my own team there are multiple people who drive 20-30 miles each direction every day. And it's very common to have a cabin/vacation place up in the mountains/by the sea and drive 3-4 hours to get there over the weekend. And they have charging stations even in the little towns out in the country, or people even have charging stations at their cabins. So yes - the range of electric only vehicles is not quite as much as gas, but that will certainly improve over time.

Plug in Hybrids are also very popular over there. I rented a RAV4 prime (pretty much identical to the US model) when I was there in June. It had about 40-50 miles range on electric only, but then kicks in to hybrid mode after that. I drove it for 2 weeks and took one long trip into the mountains over the weekend, probably 7 hours total driving, and only had to fill the tank once during the trip.

I can see owning an electric some day, I would bet the next family vehicle we purchase will be either a hybrid or full electric. But for now i'm still firmly in the gas guzzling camp - I just traded in my 2017 F150 for a 2023 with the traditional 5.0 v8 and no hybrid sytems of any kind

Infrastructure will not be be built before the cars can use it. It will be built on a slow basis. Anyway, they charge twice as much as it would cost to recharge in your own home. And as to fast charging, the faster you charge a battery, you shorten it's life, and increase the risk of overheating/explosion. As of now, you are not saving any money by buying a electric vehicle. And as to the cars heater, our 3 year old car has electric PTC heater so you do get heat before the engine warms up. Let's see, rechargeable chain saw, nope, rechargeable snow blower, nope, rechargeable lawn mower, nope. None of them would last long enough to get the job done without swapping batteries. I don't even like electric stoves and will never have one.

@mozz I do believe gas cooking will be gone while we are still driving automobiles with gas in them.