A Guitar And Gear Support Forum

Please give a listen & see what you think.

Toyota is not alone, and it is insane. One of the things I love about my '78 Jeep is that it is invulnerable to any of that.

I am not interested in automobile by subscription (this is what is coming down the road for EVs) They will probably charge you for variable power/range

The prices are bad enough just trying to get a extra key made for some of these new models. HEY! LOOK! Windows 11.

I have a feeling all companies sit in these meetings and try to figure ways to make all the products subscription based. They want to be a utility like the electric company and landline phone company. I can subscribe and "SAVE" when i buy Milkbones for my dog.

Let me start making a list of things i use every month, (not in any particular order) toilet paper, milkbones, cheese, printer ink, paper towels, paper plates, Listerine, windshield washer fluid, garbage bags, raisins, 409, cat litter, Cascade, my so many things.

FVK that, I'll buy or build a car/truck with points/manual steering/brakes before i pay a monthly fee for a piece of plastic with 57 air bags.

Toyotas can't be beat, but... I like to OWN the things I buy.

It's a good thing they're built so well, because if I buy a Toyota again, it'll have to be old.

What is scary is a lot of these wifi cars can be shut down by some disgruntled employee, while you are in motion.

andrewsrea wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:12 pm What is scary is a lot of these wifi cars can be shut down by some disgruntled employee, while you are in motion.

Or hackers. Very real concern.

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:08 pm Toyota is not alone, and it is insane. One of the things I love about my '78 Jeep is that it is invulnerable to any of that.

Old jeeps FTW!

Mossman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:02 am It's a good thing they're built so well, because if I buy a Toyota again, it'll have to be old.

This is an undeniable truth for most of the models Toyota builds. If I can ever buy an used car again for me, and money is not tight, it´ll be an OLD Land Rover, Jeep or Toyota. (Well, let´s be honest, it´ll be a Range Rover 1st generation )

andrewsrea wrote:What is scary is a lot of these wifi cars can be shut down by some disgruntled employee, while you are in motion.

There was a dealership in the Detroit area, Mel Farr, that had installed devices to shut down cars when the payments were late. Issue was they were doing it while people were driving them

Im driving an 04 avalanche which has quite a bit of electronics in it but nothing like the new ones. I doubt I will EVER buy a new one again due to this type of BS. I may even look for an older truck without all the techy stuff on it.

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:08 pm Toyota is not alone, and it is insane. One of the things I love about my '78 Jeep is that it is invulnerable to any of that.

..and easy to start even if you lose your keys!

The last car i owned was a 2008 subaru Forester. Sold thst in 2014..but on the 26th of this month im getting my first car in Thailand, a 2022 Suzuki Swift.. I was amazed at things like push button starter and front and rear cameras. I feel like im entering a different dimension. Now what side of the road are we supposed to be on again?

Holding on to my 2001 Cherokee.

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:38 pm

andrewsrea wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:12 pm What is scary is a lot of these wifi cars can be shut down by some disgruntled employee, while you are in motion.

Or hackers. Very real concern.

Hackers could theoretically do this, but then again someone could decide to hack your vehicle one of the many tried and true /old school ways. Sugar in the gas tank, snip the brake lines, or a good old fashioned in-person carjacking.

And i'm not sure about the rest of you, but i've owned some cars in lifetime that just decided to shut themselves down for no apparent reason while I was driving The very same electronic advances that are oft maligned have made todays vehicles exponentially more reliable and usable. Starting your car in northern WI in the winter used to require some skill, now it's just taken for granted for the most part

BTW, we all know that many newer cars are doing telemetry, via embedded low-fi, low-speed (3G?) micro cell modems, calling home, reporting on "the health of the car" (had prior conversation with Mickey about the subject).

I looked into it, and these cell units are something like two or three dollars in bulk. I assume this the conduit used to send code down to a specific car, enable, disable, etc. Known poor data security used by car manufacturers - in several cases, this stuff was tied to the trunk circuitry as the rest of the car, vulnerable to hacking.

uwmcscott wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:21 pm Hackers could theoretically do this, but then again someone could decide to hack your vehicle one of the many tried and true /old school ways. Sugar in the gas tank, snip the brake lines, or a good old fashioned in-person carjacking.

True, but there are new wrinkles that make it worse. Those old-school attacks would be specifically targeted at the owner/driver, probably just for personal reasons. But "connected" cars could potentially fall victim to a distributed attack (many at the same time). And the motive could be political or financial, targeting a whole community or a manufacturer.

Imagine the 405 suddenly stopped by dozens or hundreds of concurrently attacked cars. There are people who would do that for politics or money or fun or black hat reputation.

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:25 pm True, but there are new wrinkles that make it worse. Those old-school attacks would be specifically targeted at the owner/driver, probably just for personal reasons. But "connected" cars could potentially fall victim to a distributed attack (many at the same time). And the motive could be political or financial, targeting a whole community or a manufacturer.

Imagine the 405 suddenly stopped by dozens or hundreds of concurrently attacked cars. There are people who would do that for politics or money or fun or black hat reputation.

Yes, there are always new wrinkles. People have talked about the potential for power grids, other utilities and public transportation systems to get hacked for years and largely it's never happened. Same for home security systems, hosptials and prisons that also have mission critical systems that are connected to the internet in some way.

Bottom line, yes it's possible but plausible? Remember that "connected" cars have been in existence for quite a while now. OnStar for example is- and has been- hacked to shut down cars remotely. And there are millions of them out there and there have been for the better part of 2 decades.

I am personally not a fan and would not sign an agreement to have the feature in my car, but many will lkely want it and happily pay for it, even with the miniscule risk it presents to have it.

uwmcscott wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:15 pm Yes, there are always new wrinkles. People have talked about the potential for power grids, other utilities and public transportation systems to get hacked for years and largely it's never happened. Same for home security systems, hosptials and prisons that also have mission critical systems that are connected to the internet in some way.

Actually it happens on a regular basis, but most attacks don't make the news. I'm coming at this conversation following more than a decade in cyber security. Every aspect that can be considered infrastructure is pretty constantly targeted. What keeps it at bay is an industry that tries to stay up with or ahead of the threats, and it gets more complicated to do so all the time.

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:33 pm Actually it happens on a regular basis, but most attacks don't make the news. I'm coming at this conversation following more than a decade in cyber security. Every aspect that can be considered infrastructure is pretty constantly targeted. What keeps it at bay is an industry that tries to stay up with or ahead of the threats, and it gets more complicated to do so all the time.

Correct, and perhaps poor wording on my choice in that all systems are actively attacked, but generally not completely taken down on a regular basis. If that happened, we would stop using it. I have also worked in IS for most of my career and currently in healthcare so Security is of the utmost importance.

My point is that we haven't stopped using those technologies even though they are not 100% secure. Same thing with vehicle technology - sure some people won't want to buy something because it's got the potential to be hacked, but for most people the benefit/convenience outweighs the risk. So the companies managing the services will have to do their due diligence to protect their systems, and if they don't they will not continue. But there's no question that the connected vehichle is here to stay.

uwmcscott wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:44 pm Correct, and perhaps poor wording on my choice in that all systems are actively attacked, but generally not completely taken down on a regular basis. If that happened, we would stop using it. I have also worked in IS for most of my career and currently in healthcare so Security is of the utmost importance.

My point is that we haven't stopped using those technologies even though they are not 100% secure. Same thing with vehicle technology - sure some people won't want to buy something because it's got the potential to be hacked, but for most people the benefit/convenience outweighs the risk. So the companies managing the services will have to do their due diligence to protect their systems, and if they don't they will not continue. But there's no question that the connected vehichle is here to stay.

I do agree connected vehicles are here for the long-run, and will undoubtedly become very popular. I can't quite agree that they will never go away, only time will tell that, but I can call it likely they won't go away. Some developments turn out to be so potentially dangerous that they are abandoned and outlawed (worst case scenario I can think of there are biological weapons, but there are grey area examples). Of course that's apples and oranges but...

Our next big war will certainly have cyber as a primary component. Combining that with the fact most vulnerabilities, once discovered, are not immediately exploited because the attacker wants to find a way to get the most out of it. Nationally sponsored hackers are the best in their fields, unfortunately. Finally, since transportation has always been considered important infrastructure, it would make sense that any aggressor with sufficient capabilities (at least Russia or China, certainly more) has many attack vectors waiting for just such an opportunity and reason. That's reason enough for me to have a daily driver and a 78 CJ7.

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:06 pm That's reason enough for me to have a daily driver and a 78 CJ7.

Also a good reason to have an acoustic guitar in case they start coming after our modeling amps

A EMP bomb will wipe out your CJ's electronic ignition. If it's got points you may be ok. Years ago you could stop a certain brand of car with a high power CB radio signal at 27MHZ. You can also use the VIN number of a car to get a fully functional key made, there were people doing that at dealerships to help their friends steal cars. A very lot of options on cars are in the software, want heated mirrors, the wires are probably already there, just need to hook them up, and turn it on in the software. Tire specific TPMS warning, it's already there. Many Fords you can use Forscan to open up factory options. I know VW's had a big hacker forum also. Also read about hackers coming near your house, they could electronically read your keyfob you left on the kitchen table, clone your key and steal your car. I won't get into the stupid wireless chips in credit/debit cards. We used to watch free tv, by hacking into the cards, (for testing purposes only) for direct tv and dishnetwork. All it was was a cat and mouse game of changing software, in a day or to it was cracked and back too 500 free channels (for testing purposes only). Some of the these modems/cell transmitters in the cars are the very cheapest ones made, less memory, less security. But the automakers don't care, they want profits. Garage remotes? I would never have a attached garage.

BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:25 pm

uwmcscott wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:21 pm Hackers could theoretically do this, but then again someone could decide to hack your vehicle one of the many tried and true /old school ways. Sugar in the gas tank, snip the brake lines, or a good old fashioned in-person carjacking.

True, but there are new wrinkles that make it worse. Those old-school attacks would be specifically targeted at the owner/driver, probably just for personal reasons. But "connected" cars could potentially fall victim to a distributed attack (many at the same time). And the motive could be political or financial, targeting a whole community or a manufacturer.

Imagine the 405 suddenly stopped by dozens or hundreds of concurrently attacked cars. There are people who would do that for politics or money or fun or black hat reputation.

When the cars start to mesh network we will all start driving like ad hoc trains. Inches apart to save fuel, drafting. Freeways could be rush hour packed but traveling at full speed.
Until hacked.

Yea they can't help it. Can't make something better without screwing something else up. My last phone an S8 did it when they hade it both unholdable and more breakable while adding the stupid waterfall edges. Now I got 5g that drops out and the idiots took away the headphone jack. And of course they all sucked when they stopped us having extended large batteries.
Just more and more of it as we go.

That is crap