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I've never paid much attention to American cars mainly because I've never met one that was anything but dull to drive.
But that is another topic for another thread.

I was hit with a question yesterday that I am completely clueless to answer.
GM had traditionally had multiple product lines with the cheapest being Chevrolet and the poshest Caddy.
But what about the one in between? How do they rate cheapest to poshest?
Alphabetically: Buick, Olds, Pontiac?
Anyone know?

Maybe a price list of the era would help, even though there were so many models!
Should be easy to find.

I saw an article on Jalonik recently, wondering why there were so many Cutlass models, (like 20 in any given year) and WHY people were buying these unremarkable cars, consistently over the years, pretty funny writing!

I think the pecking order was
Chevy
Pontiac
Olds
Buick
Cadillac

Saturn, which came later was kind of it's own thing.

PoodlesAgain wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:52 am I saw an article on Jalonik recently,

That would have been a more fun article for me but the writing was just not good. I think he started as a click-bait writer and wrote this in the same style.

Interesting things to ponder.
I'm not a gear head but my dad was a sudu-luxery car afficenato. I think there are a few things to consider in the equation. Everybody made cars in the earlier 20th century and the big three bought them all up and kept the names. People are strange, if you know someone who drinks RC Cola you know they didn't care about the rest of the Cola War. At the end of the day there are some 3 MAJOR food pimps but a lot of names on the shelves.
Then there is the good old days of 'The Cold War.' 'Merica was great because we could have what we want depending on how hard we worked, not like those filty Communists.
@dabbler is correct on the pecking order.

I did not grow up here, so I have to ask which car maker(s) was the innovator of the day, between the mid-forties to early sixties?

I do know the very early days of the automobile had some ingenious designs, re-adapted later with better manufacturing.

mickey wrote:I've never paid much attention to American cars mainly because I've never met one that was anything but dull to drive.
But that is another topic for another thread.

I was hit with a question yesterday that I am completely clueless to answer.
GM had traditionally had multiple product lines with the cheapest being Chevrolet and the poshest Caddy.
But what about the one in between? How do they rate cheapest to poshest?
Alphabetically: Buick, Olds, Pontiac?
Anyone know?

Olds used to be their own entity with headquarters in Lansing then they became BOC though I am not sure when that occurred I haven't read the Oldsmobile history book in a long time, but there was a lot of jealousy within GM because of the separate engineering and whatnot per my Dad who worked for BOC before they fully rolled everything into GM headquarters back in the early 2000s (second hand knowledge so it could just be bluster from an old BOC employee)

Oldsmobile in the 60s was very posh (see Oldsmobile 98 ads from the mid 60s.) They were no slouch in performance. Rocket 88, 442s, Etc.

They also had the family cruiser image with the station wagons.

They also were the most innovative of the GM engineering umbrella. They had the first production aluminum block V8 with a Turbo. They had 1st mainstream FWD full-size vehicle, Toronado.
BOC made the quickest car of the 80s (Grand National).
The Quad4 was also highly innovative at the time it was released.

The malaise era were sort of the end of the uniqueness at GM as they started to blend everything together.

Buick was pretty much always 2nd fiddle to Oldsmobile within the BOC group.

Pontiac was their own thing sort of on par with Buick and Chevy never high class, but they came into their own in the muscle car era.

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honyock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:33 pm Buick was pretty much always 2nd fiddle to Oldsmobile within the BOC group.

You are probably correct. My belief in dabbler's accuracy is based on the vehicle's my father owned and then company cars based on number of years with his company and age of company. Manufacturer to manufacture that is the exact order though he drove 2 Olds and then 2 BuiHogs and then finally the Cadaract. He wouldn't even think of the Ford, Mercury, Lincoln path.
Olds and Buick also had diesel cars in the mid 80's and dad liked them.

ID10t wrote:

honyock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:33 pm Buick was pretty much always 2nd fiddle to Oldsmobile within the BOC group.

You are probably correct. My belief in dabbler's accuracy is based on the vehicle's my father owned and then company cars based on number of years with his company and age of company. Manufacturer to manufacture that is the exact order though he drove 2 Olds and then 2 BuiHogs and then finally the Cadaract. He wouldn't even think of the Ford, Mercury, Lincoln path.
Olds and Buick also had diesel cars in the mid 80's and dad liked them.

I think Oldsmobile got do do the fun engineering innovation while Buick was more boring straight forward cars during the 60s and 70s.

I just did a quick brain refresh and BOC was the failed brainchild of Roger Smith (of Roger & Me infamy) who nearly bankrupted GM with his terrible decision making in the 80s...so had no influence on the engineering resources and whatnot.

Buick was more stodgy traditional, basically only reason they still exist in the name recognition in China...probably would have died with Pontiac and Olds after the bankruptcy.

Olds was really innovative until all American automakers basically became boring in the mid 70s...

I'd say once everything became shared at GM it didn't matter. The 50s and 60s really was the peak of uniqueness within car brands before bean counters and restrictions took away brand identity within the GM corporation as a whole.



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honyock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:28 pm

ID10t wrote:

honyock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:33 pm Buick was pretty much always 2nd fiddle to Oldsmobile within the BOC group.

You are probably correct. My belief in dabbler's accuracy is based on the vehicle's my father owned and then company cars based on number of years with his company and age of company. Manufacturer to manufacture that is the exact order though he drove 2 Olds and then 2 BuiHogs and then finally the Cadaract. He wouldn't even think of the Ford, Mercury, Lincoln path.
Olds and Buick also had diesel cars in the mid 80's and dad liked them.

I think Oldsmobile got do do the fun engineering innovation while Buick was more boring straight forward cars during the 60s and 70s.

I just did a quick brain refresh and BOC was the failed brainchild of Roger Smith (of Roger & Me infamy) who nearly bankrupted GM with his terrible decision making in the 80s...so had no influence on the engineering resources and whatnot.

Buick was more stodgy traditional, basically only reason they still exist in the name recognition in China...probably would have died with Pontiac and Olds after the bankruptcy.

Olds was really innovative until all American automakers basically became boring in the mid 70s...

I'd say once everything became shared at GM it didn't matter. The 50s and 60s really was the peak of uniqueness within car brands before bean counters and restrictions took away brand identity within the GM corporation as a whole.



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I'm not a GM guy, so I can't say your observations aren't valid, but Wikipedia ordered them the way I did. And while Olds did in fact have some innovative vehicles, Buick was not all stodgy. Grand National, Riviera, Wildcat and Reatta were some fun cars in my book!

And let me add, I was disappointed and surprised when GM shut down Pontiac. I thought they were just getting to the top off their game at the time! I have a Solstice Coupe that I L-O-V-E, plus they had the most complete lineup, IMO; Solstice, GTO, G6 (including a hardtop convertible), G8, Matrix, Torrent... let's not mention the Aztek though.

I put this question out in a few places aside from here & one answer I got sorta impressed me.
The guy said he used to live next door to a retired VP from GM. Seems they had discussed this question too.
Some of his comments were interesting (to me.)

GM thought of Pontiac as their sports division (anyone remember Fireball Roberts?)
GM looked at Buick as their Mr & Mrs. Middle America line.
GM considered the Olds 98 as a Caddy Junior.

I'm not sure of the years of tenure of this VP, but that was during his era.


Something else I never figured out, was Edsel supposed to be above or below Mercury in Ford's line-up?

dabbler wrote:

honyock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:28 pm

ID10t wrote: You are probably correct. My belief in dabbler's accuracy is based on the vehicle's my father owned and then company cars based on number of years with his company and age of company. Manufacturer to manufacture that is the exact order though he drove 2 Olds and then 2 BuiHogs and then finally the Cadaract. He wouldn't even think of the Ford, Mercury, Lincoln path.
Olds and Buick also had diesel cars in the mid 80's and dad liked them.

I think Oldsmobile got do do the fun engineering innovation while Buick was more boring straight forward cars during the 60s and 70s.

I just did a quick brain refresh and BOC was the failed brainchild of Roger Smith (of Roger & Me infamy) who nearly bankrupted GM with his terrible decision making in the 80s...so had no influence on the engineering resources and whatnot.

Buick was more stodgy traditional, basically only reason they still exist in the name recognition in China...probably would have died with Pontiac and Olds after the bankruptcy.

Olds was really innovative until all American automakers basically became boring in the mid 70s...

I'd say once everything became shared at GM it didn't matter. The 50s and 60s really was the peak of uniqueness within car brands before bean counters and restrictions took away brand identity within the GM corporation as a whole.



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I'm not a GM guy, so I can't say your observations aren't valid, but Wikipedia ordered them the way I did. And while Olds did in fact have some innovative vehicles, Buick was not all stodgy. Grand National, Riviera, Wildcat and Reatta were some fun cars in my book!

And let me add, I was disappointed and surprised when GM shut down Pontiac. I thought they were just getting to the top off their game at the time! I have a Solstice Coupe that I L-O-V-E, plus they had the most complete lineup, IMO; Solstice, GTO, G6 (including a hardtop convertible), G8, Matrix, Torrent... let's not mention the Aztek though.

I am biased, growing up in Lansing, MI so I'll just agree to call it a tie.

Not saying Buicks were all stodgy throughout their history, but they did become that way (after G body was retired). They were the grandpa car of the 90s for those without the cash for a Caddy.

Oldsmobile was basically killed when they made the Cutlass a FWD 4 banger (though the Achieva SCX was a badass SCCA racer in sheep's clothing). The final nail in the coffin was when they got rid of Custom Cruiser wagon. All that was left after the station wagons died was label engineering and a quirky coupe styled sedan (Aurora) that was ahead of its time (look at the critical design success of the Mercedes CLS and VW CC). The crappy diesels of the 80s were another black eye for the company.

GM has been an absolutely terrible marketer of cars for years now. They made an awesome coupe in Australia, but it looked like a Cavalier. They made an awesome sedan in Australia and made it look like a boring everyday POS GM.

They had a great opportunity to keep making Pontiacs and follow Dodge's lead with the Charger and Challenger, but instead made the boringest looking sports sedan (SS) ever instead moving Cadillac into the sports coupe and sports sedan game...which were overpriced for young adults who instead had to get SUVs because there were no good looking/fun to drive cars in the lineup.




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All very interesting.

Not much was talked about cars in the public, recently, until Tesla came about!
I see a T on the road once in a while, but not enough to think it is THAT big a deal.

Extra GM had a plant in Switzerland?
General Motors Switzerland SA was founded on May 2, 1935

https://www.motor1.com/features/176834/ ... itzerland/

honyock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:11 pm
... The final nail in the coffin was when they got rid of Custom Cruiser wagon. All that was left after the station wagons died was label engineering and a quirky coupe styled sedan (Aurora) that was ahead of its time (look at the critical design success of the Mercedes CLS and VW CC).
...

The Vista Cruiser! I was sad when the wagons disappeared from the American car mfrs. I bought the closest thing I could get, a Dodge Magnum, my son has it now. And the Aurora WAS really a great car, the first gen anyways. THAT was one of the cars that A-L-M-O-S-T made me cross over to the GM camp!


But GM isn't the only American mfr that has dropped the ball. I was a "buy American" car buyer... but I bought my first import vehicle 3 years ago and while I'll probably keep my Solstice till I die, I may never buy another car from an American marque.

dabbler wrote:

honyock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:11 pm
... The final nail in the coffin was when they got rid of Custom Cruiser wagon. All that was left after the station wagons died was label engineering and a quirky coupe styled sedan (Aurora) that was ahead of its time (look at the critical design success of the Mercedes CLS and VW CC).
...

The Vista Cruiser! I was sad when the wagons disappeared from the American car mfrs. I bought the closest thing I could get, a Dodge Magnum, my son has it now. And the Aurora WAS really a great car, the first gen anyways. THAT was one of the cars that A-L-M-O-S-T made me cross over to the GM camp!


But GM isn't the only American mfr that has dropped the ball. I was a "buy American" car buyer... but I bought my first import vehicle 3 years ago and while I'll probably keep my Solstice till I die, I may never buy another car from an American marque.

I switch to zee German side to get a V8 wagon, shares quite a bit of the suspension and transmission with the Magnum actually. If I had known they used a Mercedes transmission instead of Mopar, I would have looked at a Magnum SRT8 harder




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For a lot of insight into GM, read "Car Guys vs. Bean Counters" by Bob Lutz.

And our family contractor has a Magnum SRT8. That's not just a Mercedes transmission, it's an AMG transmission. He had a big argument with a Chrysler dealer after they used the wrong fluid....

Nice car, exept for the interior, which is decidedly low-grade. I wish they had updated it with the new Charger interior as well.

Rollin Hand wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:33 pm For a lot of insight into GM, read "Car Guys vs. Bean Counters" by Bob Lutz.

And our family contractor has a Magnum SRT8. That's not just a Mercedes transmission, it's an AMG transmission. He had a big argument with a Chrysler dealer after they used the wrong fluid....

Nice car, exept for the interior, which is decidedly low-grade. I wish they had updated it with the new Charger interior as well.

The SRT8/AMG transmission isn't really that different from the 722.6 in my E500. They just got a different programming (Speedshift holds the gear where mine will autoshift at WOT which is fine since mine is AWD and I can't do smokey burnouts anyway) and slightly different internals for higher input torque. They still need the same Mercedes spec 236.14 fluid mine does...

I think the order was

1. Mercury
2. Ford
3. Edsel

1. Caddy
2. Olds
3. Buick
4. Pontiac
5. Chevy
6. Saturn

I decided to give car sells a spin for 2 years and if it wasn't for gigging I would have starved anyway I worked at a GM dealership that sold OLDS CADILLAC and GMC trucks and SUV'S and learned a lot about General Motors and my understanding their cars were targeting age demographic as well as the specific price points.
Chevy went after blue collar young and old alike with offerings from Impala's to Camaros
Pontiac had a couple of offerings for the older crowd but primarily targeted the younger demographic with GTO Firebird and such
Oldsmobile went after the middle class with a bit more income including including young folks with the 442 and such
Buick went after the upper middle class older folk
Cadillac was strictly after the Luxury car folks
GMC was built hardier than Chevy and went after the company fleet as well as small business's in need of service vehicles
Chevy tried to appeal to the small farmer as well as the guy that just wanted a truck.
Anyway that's how I was taught at that dealership.

I am no expert gear head.

I agree with @dabbler for cars, with the exception of Buick vs. Olds for specific periods. Late 60's early 70's Oldsmobile had Cadillac cars, with the same quality and slightly different styling. The rest of the time, Buick had more classier cars than Olds.

My opinion is that Saturn was equivalent to Chevy's econo cars.

For trucks, i think it was: Chevy, GMC, Hummer.

andrewsrea wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:09 am ...

My opinion is that Saturn was equivalent to Chevy's econo cars.
...

I agree with this mostly, except for the Outlook and Sky.