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What a mess
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:55 pm
by BatUtilityBelt
I love my Agile AL-3001. It sounds great dimed out, plays like butter, and with the SS frets I know I can't really hurt it over time. But, as every lefty knows, a lot of lefty tone pots are wired wrong at the factory and left that way. My 3001 has this problem on both tone pots - either all choke or all wide open, nothing between. I was going to go in and quickly resolder the tone pots right to correct this on my 3001, and this is what I see... The worst LP wiring I've ever seen. I can't even map it by eye. I'm going to have to spend time labeling some of these, and draw a diagram of the way it's currently wired because it doesn't make sense to me. I know you can't see it all, I can't either. But for a clue, look what's going on with the capacitors and the lugs they're on. It's not 50's wiring, and it's not modern wiring. Why are they on the 3rd lug? I don't have a name for it. So, should I trace each wire or desolder it all and start it over?
Re: What a mess
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:32 pm
by ID10t
BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:55 pm
I love my Agile AL-3001. It sounds great dimed out, plays like butter, and with the SS frets I know I can't really hurt it over time. But, as every lefty knows, a lot of lefty tone pots are wired wrong at the factory and left that way. My 3001 has this problem on both tone pots - either all choke or all wide open, nothing between. I was going to go in and quickly resolder the tone pots right to correct this on my 3001, and this is what I see... The worst LP wiring I've ever seen. I can't even map it by eye. I'm going to have to spend time labeling some of these, and draw a diagram of the way it's currently wired because it doesn't make sense to me. I know you can't see it all, I can't either. But for a clue, look what's going on with the capacitors and the lugs they're on. It's not 50's wiring, and it's not modern wiring. Why are they on the 3rd lug? I don't have a name for it. So, should I trace each wire or desolder it all and start it over?
Wiring.jpg
I'm not a guitar wiring guru, but it seems to me a good start would be desolder the CAPs from lug 1 on move them to lug 3 (but it seems the difference between lug 1 and lug 3 is whether it sweeps up clock-wise or counter-clock-wise. Play it and if you like it then done. Else desolder everything and put it back where everything belongs. The leads from pickups are easy enough to figure out and the output is really easy to figure out. Everything between is easy to figure out. One bite at a time.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:07 pm
by BatUtilityBelt
ID10t wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:32 pm
BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:55 pm
I love my Agile AL-3001. It sounds great dimed out, plays like butter, and with the SS frets I know I can't really hurt it over time. But, as every lefty knows, a lot of lefty tone pots are wired wrong at the factory and left that way. My 3001 has this problem on both tone pots - either all choke or all wide open, nothing between. I was going to go in and quickly resolder the tone pots right to correct this on my 3001, and this is what I see... The worst LP wiring I've ever seen. I can't even map it by eye. I'm going to have to spend time labeling some of these, and draw a diagram of the way it's currently wired because it doesn't make sense to me. I know you can't see it all, I can't either. But for a clue, look what's going on with the capacitors and the lugs they're on. It's not 50's wiring, and it's not modern wiring. Why are they on the 3rd lug? I don't have a name for it. So, should I trace each wire or desolder it all and start it over?
Wiring.jpg
I'm not a guitar wiring guru, but it seems to me a good start would be desolder the CAPs from lug 1 on move them to lug 3 (but it seems the difference between lug 1 and lug 3 is whether it sweeps up clock-wise or counter-clock-wise. Play it and if you like it then done. Else desolder everything and put it back where everything belongs. The leads from pickups are easy enough to figure out and the output is really easy to figure out. Everything between is easy to figure out. One bite at a time.
My initial thought was desolder the caps from the tone pots and use alligator clips to try them in the opposite lugs. But good LP wiring I know has the caps going between the middle lug on the tone to the 1st lug on the volume if I recall that right. I think you're right that moving between lugs 1 and 3 would just change the direction of the sweep, and that's my worry. I don't care if they turn the wrong direction to have full control, but if they're just 0 and 10 levels either way, that doesn't do. So I think I want the caps to move to the middle lug, and have to see where the white wire is really coming from to know if it's even ok moving to another lug. I only have a few alligator patches (maybe 4).
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:36 am
by ID10t
BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:07 pm
ID10t wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:32 pm
BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:55 pm
I love my Agile AL-3001. It sounds great dimed out, plays like butter, and with the SS frets I know I can't really hurt it over time. But, as every lefty knows, a lot of lefty tone pots are wired wrong at the factory and left that way. My 3001 has this problem on both tone pots - either all choke or all wide open, nothing between. I was going to go in and quickly resolder the tone pots right to correct this on my 3001, and this is what I see... The worst LP wiring I've ever seen. I can't even map it by eye. I'm going to have to spend time labeling some of these, and draw a diagram of the way it's currently wired because it doesn't make sense to me. I know you can't see it all, I can't either. But for a clue, look what's going on with the capacitors and the lugs they're on. It's not 50's wiring, and it's not modern wiring. Why are they on the 3rd lug? I don't have a name for it. So, should I trace each wire or desolder it all and start it over?
Wiring.jpg
I'm not a guitar wiring guru, but it seems to me a good start would be desolder the CAPs from lug 1 on move them to lug 3 (but it seems the difference between lug 1 and lug 3 is whether it sweeps up clock-wise or counter-clock-wise. Play it and if you like it then done. Else desolder everything and put it back where everything belongs. The leads from pickups are easy enough to figure out and the output is really easy to figure out. Everything between is easy to figure out. One bite at a time.
My initial thought was desolder the caps from the tone pots and use alligator clips to try them in the opposite lugs. But good LP wiring I know has the caps going between the middle lug on the tone to the 1st lug on the volume if I recall that right. I think you're right that moving between lugs 1 and 3 would just change the direction of the sweep, and that's my worry. I don't care if they turn the wrong direction to have full control, but if they're just 0 and 10 levels either way, that doesn't do. So I think I want the caps to move to the middle lug, and have to see where the white wire is really coming from to know if it's even ok moving to another lug. I only have a few alligator patches (maybe 4).
I never saw a CAP on the center lug until I just looked for it, I repeat that I am not a Guru. I think you just have some soldiering ahead of you. Consider new POTs and I would check if they are linear or audio. Tone should be linear but different people like different things, I like linear on Volume control and I don't appreciate the tone pot yet (all or nothing). AND a cheap Pot that does what you want is better than a $$ CTS that doesn't work or that doesn't fit in the budget.
Might want to clean your current POTs with Deoxit to see if it gives you some 1-9 instead of 0 or 10.
I'm just reminding you of the trouble shooting list and cheering you on. I have to trouble shoot my wonky 3200 that needs to warm-up or flip between positions to get the bridge going.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:29 am
by mozz
I see linear on the volumes and audio taper on the tone. I also see .047 which is going to be dark on the tone. Also if you are using 2 lugs on a pot, it doesn't matter which wire or cap go to.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:09 am
by BatUtilityBelt
Following up... I desoldered the caps from the 3rd lug and tried them on the 1st lug with alligator patches. Lo and behold, the pots had full control with a nice sweep, so I soldered each to the 1st lug. In my mind I always talk myself into thinking that will only change the direction of the sweep, but it does more than that. There are lefty and righty pots, and they are not reversible. If you wire a righty pot as if it was a lefty, or vice versa, you get this 0 or 10 switch-like behavior.
As a lefty, I am used to buying guitars with this problem - maybe 20% - 25% of the lefty guitars out there were born with it. Because of that, and because many manufacturers don't choose lefty pots when building lefty guitars, I do not care which direction does what - I get used to that when I pick up each guitar. What really threw me on this one is that I was used to seeing the cap on the center lug, and connecting to the volume pot. Not so in this case, but it now all works well.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:48 am
by LancerTheGreat
Wait... Playing guitar wrong is forgivable, but lefty's turn their knobs the "loose" direction to go louder and the "tight" direction to go quieter?
Do y'all buy left handed amps too?
I'm just foolin'... a little bit
Glad you got it sorted though, that's a wild issue I would've been completely stumped on.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:09 pm
by fatjack
Yes we have left handed amp . A little known fact is all Dumbles are left handed, which is why they are so coveted and expensive.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:04 pm
by tobijohn
Just about every import guitar I've got originally came wired like that, with audio tone/linear volume pots and with 047 caps. The first order of business for me is to rewire to a right-handed config (clockwise to increase) and 50s style to eliminate that on/off effect on the tone and the tone dropping when the volume is turned down as well as replace the caps with 022s in the humbucker guitars. The only other alternative is to replace the stock A500K audio tone pots and B500K linear volume pots with C500K pots (reverse audio taper), it's cheaper to just switch the wiring around...
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:45 am
by mickey
The first thing I have to do to 99% of new electric guitars is get rid of the stupid Les Paul wiring and convert to Gretsch wiring.
Having the volume controls interact drives me up the wall!
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:27 am
by tobijohn
mickey wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:45 am
The first thing I have to do to 99% of new electric guitars is get rid of the stupid Les Paul wiring and convert to Gretsch wiring.
Having the volume controls interact drives me up the wall!
Do you mean with a master volume, master tone and separate bridge and neck controls as well?
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:30 am
by mickey
NO!
I mean the volumes do NOT interact!
Turn BOTH pickups on.
Turn either volume to 0
Both pickups are dead.
THAT is Les Paul wiring.
Turn both pickups on.
Turn EITHER volume to ZERO
The other pickup is not affected.
THAT is Gretsch wiring.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:34 am
by BatUtilityBelt
mickey wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:45 am
The first thing I have to do to 99% of new electric guitars is get rid of the stupid Les Paul wiring and convert to Gretsch wiring.
Having the volume controls interact drives me up the wall!
I've never thought of that. I have a couple with 50's wiring, but this is an interesting idea. 1 tone, 3 volumes. I might just try that sometime when an LP needs rewiring anyway.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:42 am
by tobijohn
mickey wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:30 am
NO!
I mean the volumes do NOT interact!
Turn BOTH pickups on.
Turn either pickup to 0
Both pickups are dead.
THAT is Les Paul wiring.
Turn both pickups on.
Turn EITHER volume to ZERO
The other pickup is not affected.
THAT is Gretsch wiring.
When it comes to understanding wiring concepts, I'm a monkey working for a banana, I couldn't explain
why it works the way it does, I just note point A connects to point B and do what the human picture tells me to do. That said, wouldn't the diagram I posted above accomplish that?
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:49 am
by mickey
You are over complexificating everything my friend.
With a volume pot, there are three legs, one of them is GROUND.
We will ignore that one.
If you swap the wires on the other two legs
(take whatever was on leg 1 and connect it to leg 2
and what was on leg 2 and connect it to leg 1
you have fixed the problem.)
But you've gotta do it on BOTH volume pots.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:10 am
by tobijohn
tobijohn wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:42 am
mickey wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:30 am
NO!
I mean the volumes do NOT interact!
Turn BOTH pickups on.
Turn either pickup to 0
Both pickups are dead.
THAT is Les Paul wiring.
Turn both pickups on.
Turn EITHER volume to ZERO
The other pickup is not affected.
THAT is Gretsch wiring.
When it comes to understanding wiring concepts, I'm a monkey working for the banana, I couldn't explain
why it works the way it does, I just note point A connects to point B and do what the human's picture tells me to do. That said, wouldn't the diagram I posted above accomplish that?
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:18 am
by mickey
Yes, it would BUT it is an overcomplexification.
There is no reason to go to such extremes.
John, please give me a call, I tried to phone you but got no answer.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:11 am
by nomadh
Am I correct in thinking there is no left or right linear taper only on audio taper? As a righty I have only 1 guitar with a weird on off tone effect.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:30 am
by tobijohn
nomadh wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:11 am
Am I correct in thinking there is no left or right linear taper only on audio taper? As a righty I have only 1 guitar with a weird on off tone effect.
My experience has been that the on/off effect on linear pots (B250k or B500K) wired in reverse (volume/tone
increases in a counter-clockwise direction) as they are on just about every left-handed import guitar is not as extreme as it is on audio pots (A250K/A500K).
Also, almost every import guitar I have originally came with right-handed linear volume and audio tone pots, although a few had all audio pots (IIRC, Schecters and
maybe one of the early new style AL-3100/3200).
I'd be interested to know why imports are wired differently and how that started, I've got a few from the mid 80s and they're wired the same. It would seem from a production cost perspective, it would be easier to use the same harness for both dexterities...
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:01 pm
by BatUtilityBelt
tobijohn wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:30 am
I'd be interested to know why imports are wired differently and how that started, I've got a few from the mid 80s and they're wired the same. It would seem from a production cost perspective, it would be easier to use the same harness for both dexterities...
As I understand it, there is one very busy guy in South Korea who goes around claiming to know how to wire lefty guitars. He gets almost all of those jobs, and he doesn't test his work.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:42 pm
by mickey
nomadh wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:11 am
Am I correct in thinking there is no left or right linear taper only on audio taper? As a righty I have only 1 guitar with a weird on off tone effect.
Yes, you are.
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:04 pm
by tobijohn
BatUtilityBelt wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:01 pm
As I understand it, there is one very busy guy in South Korea who goes around claiming to know how to wire lefty guitars. He gets almost all of those jobs, and he doesn't test his work.
I think that guy might have cousins in Japan and Indonesia because the lefty guitars out of there are wired the same as well...
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:31 pm
by mickey
Reading this thread reminds me of watching the movie "Santa Clause Conquers the Martians" back in 1964.
And has all the same science.
Santa vs the Martians, 1964
Re: What a mess
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:01 pm
by mozz
There is no lefty or righty pot when it comes to linear.
