A Guitar And Gear Support Forum

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:01 pm**

Looking at picking up a new rifle. Thinking about a 9mm Carbine. There are a lot of options and price ranges.

Seriously looking at the Ruger PC 9 w/the free float hand guard.

Anyone have any experience with these types of rifles?

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:25 pm**

Looks cool. No experience with them by me though. Hope it works out.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:58 pm**

I don't know anything except that it looks like something out of starship troopers.
I'd be tempted to get the civilian equivalent of what my brother in law uses in the military (Filipino). Even then it's zero having to do with any need and just wanted to understand his gear better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmaste ... pe_Carbine

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:01 pm**

Not familiar with that particular rifle but, as of right now try to find ammo, i'm not kidding.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:26 pm**

mozz wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:01 pm Not familiar with that particular rifle but, as of right now try to find ammo, i'm not kidding.

I hear that. It’s around here but it goes fast.

Hell, that’s the way it is with everything. I tried to buy a new chain for my chainsaw today and the shop owner just laughed at me. Lol.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:22 pm**

The PC carbine comes in a lot of different flavors - from the "tacticool" like that to plain old rifle looking versions. I considered one but the thing that eventually turned me elsewhere was the ballistics and accuracy of a 9mm out of a rifle. Most cartridges benefit significantly both in velocity and long range accuracy out of a longer barrel, but for whatever reason 9mm appears not to as much as other PCC's. Having said that, the takedown version is super portable and it comes with adapters to use the ruger magazines as well as glock mags, so lots of glock owners like them because of that too.

I'd say it depends on what you want to use it for - target shooting and plinking, and the ease of sharing mags, it's a go. For better ballistics and hunting/long range target there are many better options. If you want something for hunting or long range target, I'd go with something in a rifle cartridge. 30-06 or .270 are probably the most common and very powerful/accurate cartridges you can find.

If you want a pistol caliber carbine to pair up with a handgun, you might want to check out a lever action in 357/38. That ammo is even harder to find right now, but a 357 out of a rifle is powerful enough for medium size game like whitetail with proper shot placement. 9mm isn't really powerful enough for that IMHO. Leverguns don't have the new/tactical "cool" factor but they are super functional, light and powerful. 44mag is a pretty common option too, or 45 long colt.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:43 pm**

@uwmcscott appreciate the input. Actually looking for a target/plinking rifle. Also going to pick up a 9mm semi-auto hand gun in the near future so I thought a 9mm rifle made sense.

When ammo does show up in the wild around here (Northern Indiana), it’s usually the 9mm that’s in abundance.

Thought about 40 cal as well for a while but think I settled on 9mm.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:47 pm**

I have a feeling I know how this is going to go, but if I can't share, then what can I do?

Sharing mags with pistols, I get it.
Having said that, if you are trying to scratch an itch then you really should look at a Hi-Point carbine (995). I know, I know, I would not buy a Hi-point pistol. I wouldn't carry a Hi-Point (I wear a pistol everywhere, everytime (with exception of where laws prohibit)). The Hi-point carbine has excellent reviews, is built well, has a life-time warrenty (if it breaks they will fix it). Standard 10 round mags that are affordable and 15 round Promags are available ($35).

I have one, it is fun at the range and it is often in my truck sometimes with sometimes without a FAL.

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:52 pm**

Spike wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:43 pm @uwmcscott appreciate the input. Actually looking for a target/plinking rifle. Also going to pick up a 9mm semi-auto hand gun in the near future so I thought a 9mm rifle made sense.

When ammo does show up in the wild around here (Northern Indiana), it’s usually the 9mm that’s in abundance.

Thought about 40 cal as well for a while but think I settled on 9mm.

Then the PCC is probably a great choice. I was seriously considering the base model PCC in 9mm with the standard rifle stock as I already have a Glock G19. I have found that firearms are a lot like guitars in many ways...and like potato chips too

Posted: **Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:54 pm**

ID10t wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:47 pm I have a feeling I know how this is going to go, but if I can't share, then what can I do?

Sharing mags with pistols, I get it.
Having said that, if you are trying to scratch an itch then you really should look at a Hi-Point carbine (995). I know, I know, I would not buy a Hi-point pistol. I wouldn't carry a Hi-Point (I wear a pistol everywhere, everytime (with exception of where laws prohibit)). The Hi-point carbine has excellent reviews, is built well, has a life-time warrenty (if it breaks they will fix it). Standard 10 round mags that are affordable and 15 round Promags are available ($35).

I have one, it is fun at the range and it is often in my truck sometimes with sometimes without a FAL.

Crazy low price point for sure. I’ll give it a look as well. Thanks.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:56 pm**

Agree 100% with @uwmcscott. I've always felt that the 9mm is an underpowered cartridge and not one that improves in a rifle. A Rossi/Puma model 92, chambered in .357 or .44 mag would very nicely fit the bill for what you are looking for. I've owned a .357 version for over 20 years and, for being such a cheap gun, is priceless to me. Point of aim is very easy to find and the action, once worn a little, is smooth like butter. When plinking, you can shoot .38s (very easy to reload) and switch to .357 for more power. Many moons ago, I used to get together with a couple gun guys and we used to shoot skeet with rifles (hand launched skeet, not thrown.) The .357 was my go-to gun for such nonsense. I can't give it a better recommendation than that. And one last thing: I've never had to do anything to it except feed it and clean it.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:36 pm**

These days you are better off with 9mm, the power difference is irrelevant unless you are planning to use it to kill hords of zombies or animals. The availability of 9mm is the major factor right now.

As to reloading , good luck with that. There was a time I could shoot 38 special as cheap as 22 rimfire. You are lucky if you can buy primers or powder right now. I have thousands of empty brass and thousand of 158 gr tips just waiting. Lyman molds and Rcbs presses collecting dust.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:57 pm**

mozz wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:36 pm These days you are better off with 9mm, the power difference is irrelevant unless you are planning to use it to kill hords of zombies or animals.

That's a matter of opinion and much debate. And I have hunted deer with that .357 (we have small mule dear in Alabama.) I wouldn't try that with a 9mm even if it was legal. As for the reloading, I've been storing supplies for almost 20 years so that isn't a problem, yet. I used to be a heavy reloader but that has trailed off to almost nil the last half decade. Keep your primers and powder dry and they will last indefinitely.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:33 pm**

mozz wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:36 pm These days you are better off with 9mm, the power difference is irrelevant unless you are planning to use it to kill hords of zombies or animals. The availability of 9mm is the major factor right now.

As to reloading , good luck with that. There was a time I could shoot 38 special as cheap as 22 rimfire. You are lucky if you can buy primers or powder right now. I have thousands of empty brass and thousand of 158 gr tips just waiting. Lyman molds and Rcbs presses collecting dust.

Now days even 22 isnt cheap. Unless you compare it to the new price of 38 or 9mm

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:56 pm**

I was just at a gun show weekend before last and I saw an odd looking rifle. It had a tag on it that said it used Glock mags. Not sure the caliber but for target shooting that would be a handy feature if you like Glock pistols as well. When I go target shooting usually take several pistols of different calibers from .22LR to .45. I like the dynamics of the different rounds.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:59 pm**

Raindog wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:56 pm Agree 100% with @uwmcscott. I've always felt that the 9mm is an underpowered cartridge and not one that improves in a rifle. A Rossi/Puma model 92, chambered in .357 or .44 mag would very nicely fit the bill for what you are looking for. I've owned a .357 version for over 20 years and, for being such a cheap gun, is priceless to me. Point of aim is very easy to find and the action, once worn a little, is smooth like butter. When plinking, you can shoot .38s (very easy to reload) and switch to .357 for more power. Many moons ago, I used to get together with a couple gun guys and we used to shoot skeet with rifles (hand launched skeet, not thrown.) The .357 was my go-to gun for such nonsense. I can't give it a better recommendation than that. And one last thing: I've never had to do anything to it except feed it and clean it.

aaa.JPG

I actually just bought that exact same Rossi92 in 357 earlier this year. And I agree on all counts...at the time I bought it was a pretty good deal, you can't find them for twice what I paid now even if you had the cash in hand. And I probably still paid twice what you did 20 years ago! I got it to pair up with a 357 revolver, and I also have an old Model 94 in 32 winchester special that has been in my family for a long time, so the mystique/intrigue of the levergun is close to my heart.

Having said that, the PC Carbine is a pretty cool gun too, the takedown mechanism is a lot like the ruger 10-22 takedown and very solid. If I had a bunch of spare cash and could actually find one to buy I wouldn't mind having one in a collection. I wouldn't hunt deer with it but it would be a lot of fun at the range and as a backpacking/bugout/small game gun.

Posted: **Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:45 pm**

If it's for zombies, shotguns are best.

Posted: **Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:57 am**

uwmcscott wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:59 pm I actually just bought that exact same Rossi92 in 357 earlier this year. And I agree on all counts...at the time I bought it was a pretty good deal, you can't find them for twice what I paid now even if you had the cash in hand. And I probably still paid twice what you did 20 years ago! .

I purchased mine (Puma version), along with it's brother in .44 mag, used but in new shape for a total of $375. $175 for the .357 and $200 for the .44. Those were the days........

And while we are talking about guns, I purchased this one, NIB, for $156 when they were on the market. I wished that I had bought 20 in every configuration. At least one in .22 Hornet. Who knew then?

Posted: **Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:17 pm**

Raindog wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:57 am I purchased mine (Puma version), along with it's brother in .44 mag, used but in new shape for a total of $375. $175 for the .357 and $200 for the .44. Those were the days........

And while we are talking about guns, I purchased this one, NIB, for $156 when they were on the market. I wished that I had bought 20 in every configuration. At least one in .22 Hornet. Who knew then?

Yes, kind of like the days when you could buy a new AL-2000 from kurt for $150

Street price on the Rossi92's was around $500-600 depending on the caliber back when I found mine, but I see them going on the third-party trading platforms for several hundred more than that now. Heck, people are actively buying/selling 50 rounds boxes of 38special/357 target ammo for well over $1/round - nuts.

I really enjoy utilitarian models like that scout or other takedown/packable ones. A takedown ruger 10/22 is another favorite. One day I'd like to get my hands on a browning BLR in .270 or 30-06.

Posted: **Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:57 am**

Speaking of those, I’m actively looking for a Henry AR-7. Hell, those are even hard to find now. I watched a you tube vid and saw an integrally suppressed barrel for it. Don’t need it but really want it!

I should really stick with guitars. I can see this hobby is just as addicting.

Posted: **Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:11 am**

Spike wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:57 am Speaking of those, I’m actively looking for a Henry AR-7. Hell, those are even hard to find now. I watched a you tube vid and saw an integrally suppressed barrel for it. Don’t need it but really want it!

I should really stick with guitars. I can see this hobby is just as addicting.

Anything related to firearms is hard to find right now - likely the worst it's ever been if you talk to dealers. If you like the concept of the AR-7, check out the Ruger 10/22 takedown with the Magpul backpacker stock. And yes, it can be as bad or even worse than guitars if you let it

Posted: **Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:27 am**

Spike wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:57 am Speaking of those, I’m actively looking for a Henry AR-7. Hell, those are even hard to find now. I watched a you tube vid and saw an integrally suppressed barrel for it. Don’t need it but really want it!

I should really stick with guitars. I can see this hobby is just as addicting.

If I knew then what I know now. I would evaluate my wants and needs. One problem is technology moves forward. What I mean is that for all intents and purposes, I have no need for a 40 S&W let alone a 10mm; 9mm round perform better today than they did 25 years ago. I have a Remington 700 that cost less than everything done to it, it by far out shoots me, it can reach out to 1000 yards and dot an i in high wiind at variable humidity. How often do I take it out? My life circumstances are different. I WOULD think about kitchen equipment. How many specialty tools do you need and can you store them?
It can be addicting. Blessed for these First World problems.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:45 pm**

ID10t wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:27 am 9mm round perform better today than they did 25 years ago.

This is a huge myth that has been spread all over the web forever. 9mm remains just as ineffective as it has been forever. ALL standard handgun rounds are lethal and ALL standard handgun rounds lack the hypothetical stopping power to drop a bad guy as quickly as you would hope for self defense and might expect from watching Hollywood depictions. The improvements in expansion/penetration tradeoffs in modern 9mm ammo are relatively minor and mean virtually nothing outside of standardized gelatin tests. Barring a direct CNS hit, a guy you shoot with a 9mm will not be reliably physically incapacitated no matter what fancy ammo you use.

I have a friend who is an ER doc/trauma surgeon who routinely treats people with multiple 9mm holes in them. Even many who eventually die, show up alive and relatively functional ie. still capable of shooting back. I just spoke with him last week and he told me about a recent patient who WALKED into the ER with 8 .45 ACP wounds to the torso! He didn't survive, but that didn't necessarily do the guy he was in a fight with much good at the time.

More than 99% of successful self defense situations don't require actually shooting the attacker, so one can definitely make a strong argument that caliber doesn't matter except for the most extreme cases, and I would agree. The .380 I carry is way more effective than the .45 I leave at home and better than 99% as effective as a hypothetical perfect one shot instant stop kill-o-zap gun. If I ever run into one of the super rare situation where I need to actually shoot someone to stop them, I know I am a bit under gunned, but I just can't justify carrying a 12 gauge all the time!

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:29 pm**

Chocol8 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:45 pm
ID10t wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:27 am 9mm round perform better today than they did 25 years ago.
This is a huge myth that has been spread all over the web forever. 9mm remains just as ineffective as it has been forever. ALL standard handgun rounds are lethal and ALL standard handgun rounds lack the hypothetical stopping power to drop a bad guy as quickly as you would hope for self defense and might expect from watching Hollywood depictions. The improvements in expansion/penetration tradeoffs in modern 9mm ammo are relatively minor and mean virtually nothing outside of standardized gelatin tests. Barring a direct CNS hit, a guy you shoot with a 9mm will not be reliably physically incapacitated no matter what fancy ammo you use.

I have a friend who is an ER doc/trauma surgeon who routinely treats people with multiple 9mm holes in them. Even many who eventually die, show up alive and relatively functional ie. still capable of shooting back. I just spoke with him last week and he told me about a recent patient who WALKED into the ER with 8 .45 ACP wounds to the torso! He didn't survive, but that didn't necessarily do the guy he was in a fight with much good at the time.

More than 99% of successful self defense situations don't require actually shooting the attacker, so one can definitely make a strong argument that caliber doesn't matter except for the most extreme cases, and I would agree. The .380 I carry is way more effective than the .45 I leave at home and better than 99% as effective as a hypothetical perfect one shot instant stop kill-o-zap gun. If I ever run into one of the super rare situation where I need to actually shoot someone to stop them, I know I am a bit under gunned, but I just can't justify carrying a 12 gauge all the time!

I didn't and am not calling you out nor yanking your chain. Sounds like we are headed to the same destination by different routes. I don't carry the biggest gun I have because risk assestment just doesn't put me there. I usually have a rifle close and the pistol is to help me get to a rifle.
I worked an ambulance for years, don't need to preach to me about Small Arms, even rifles are considered Small Arms.
Militarily; a dead enemy uses zero to 1 additional enemy assets, a wounded enemy uses many more, so they do what they are designed to do.
Now, I am not a internet lemming, though we all are subjected to propaganda. Do you truly belive in the last 25 years there has not been an improvement in under and over penetration or velocity and FPS?
If it's not a CNS or major artery, then it is really about cavitation.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:07 am**

ID10t wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:27 am This is a huge myth that has been spread all over the web forever. 9mm remains just as ineffective as it has been forever. ALL standard handgun rounds are lethal and ALL standard handgun rounds lack the hypothetical stopping power to drop a bad guy as quickly as you would hope for self defense and might expect from watching Hollywood depictions. The improvements in expansion/penetration tradeoffs in modern 9mm ammo are relatively minor and mean virtually nothing outside of standardized gelatin tests. Barring a direct CNS hit, a guy you shoot with a 9mm will not be reliably physically incapacitated no matter what fancy ammo you use.

Amen, brother! A heard one of the gun gurus say something about 30 years ago that has always stuck with me. "A handgun is a fine weapon. But, under siege, its just a stop-gap solution to hold off intruders until you can get to a long gun." That has always stuck with me and I've lived it all my adult life. I have a firearm in every room of my house except the guest's bathroom. I am never more than a room away from a shotgun. At my age and eyesight, the shotgun is a dear, old friend.

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