A Guitar And Gear Support Forum

Just heard a new phrase for the first time today. A news actress was pitching the new season of the tv show The Masked Singer and said it would utilize "technologically augmented reality." They've actually made up a fancy name for "fake" they can use to legitimize and normalize it, even make it seem hip, cutting edge, and artistically avant garde. This is exactly what the subject off this thread is about.

Oh, here's another one I've come across, "electronic support."

I can see it now . . .

The Technologically Augmented Reality Tour (advertised in some media markets as The Monsters of Schlock), with headliners . . .

KISS
Def Leppard
MÖTLEY CRÜE

Feel free to add to the list.

toomanycats wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:25 am Just heard a new phrase for the first time today. A news actress was pitching the new season of the tv show The Masked Singer and said it would utilize "technologically augmented reality." They've actually made up a fancy name for "fake" they can use to legitimize and normalize it. This is exactly what the subject off this thread is about.

Oh, here's another one I've come across, "electronic support."

I can see it now . . .

The Technologically Augmented Reality Tour (advertised in some media markets as The Monsters of Schlock), with headliners . . .

KISS
Def Leppard
MÖTLEY CRÜE

Feel free to add to the list.

Milli Vanilli (remember them? They weren't even on their recordings.)

ZZ Top runs some vocal tracks on Legs (at least)--allegedly.

Piss on the Posers. ( trade mark, my next band name option)

Very cheat-y it seems. I do remember playing man in the box to just laynes vocals. No drums or markers in the song. I was very self impressed when I was able to come out of the solo and right back into the vox. Fun to try but could you imagine the misery of being in a band that was always on lockdown? I play music to get away from the lockdown.

Anyone know What bands do this? Like I said I suspect Scorps do at least some times.
I'd have to say ones that don't would be Deep purple, ufo, shenker, yes, tesla.
I think ZZ top sort of did it here and there for the mtv stuff but very loose and live otherwise. Tossing around old faves like a seal playing with a balloon

I don't mind ZZ Top with "support" so much, as long as it's just the electronic elements of the MTV era stuff. EVH and his backing secondary guitar tracks are OK too, as long as the performance itself isn't faked.

rrobbone wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:13 pm I don't mind ZZ Top with "support" so much, as long as it's just the electronic elements of the MTV era stuff. EVH and his backing secondary guitar tracks are OK too, as long as the performance itself isn't faked.

Whoooah, what a minute . . . EVH uses pre-recorded backing guitar tracks onstage? Seriously?

toomanycats wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:01 pm

rrobbone wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:13 pm I don't mind ZZ Top with "support" so much, as long as it's just the electronic elements of the MTV era stuff. EVH and his backing secondary guitar tracks are OK too, as long as the performance itself isn't faked.

Whoooah, what a minute . . . EVH uses pre-recorded backing guitar tracks onstage? Seriously?

Can't tell if sarcasm....

The last time I saw him live was for the Balance tour. There's no way he wasn't supported by the rhythm track jumping in and out. He played all the lead lines and the rhythm ducked so he could play it when not playing lead stuff. Which was ok by me, not that he asked.

I saw them on the Balance tour, and I didn't get that impression.

rrobbone wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:29 pm

toomanycats wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:01 pm

rrobbone wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:13 pm I don't mind ZZ Top with "support" so much, as long as it's just the electronic elements of the MTV era stuff. EVH and his backing secondary guitar tracks are OK too, as long as the performance itself isn't faked.

Whoooah, what a minute . . . EVH uses pre-recorded backing guitar tracks onstage? Seriously?

Can't tell if sarcasm....

The last time I saw him live was for the Balance tour. There's no way he wasn't supported by the rhythm track jumping in and out. He played all the lead lines and the rhythm ducked so he could play it when not playing lead stuff. Which was ok by me, not that he asked.

Not being sarcastic. That EVH had done this is news to me and shocking. I'm crestfallen actually.

Part of what made the Dave era of VH so great was that there were only three guys onstage playing instruments (let's put the existence of the Davesicle aside for the moment). Like any band with the line-up similarly filled out, it leaves a lot of space, looseness, and freedom for a busy lead guitar player to go all over the place. It's like a, "Here's all this blank space on the canvas, fill it out," type of thing. Think Cream, Zeppelin, Dokken, Ozzy (Randy, Zakk, Jake), Hendrix, SRV, and so on. Roth era VH seemed to have an especially loose and and spontaneous feeling to their live shows. I thought it was exciting, because to me that is the essence of live rock band performing.

When Sammy joined the band there was a lot of talk about the fact there would be second guitar player, because that seemed really weird at the time. We weren't talking about Dave with his popsicle prop, but a real guitar player. It had always been just been Ed up there filling in all that space. What I'm saying is that when the 5150 tour rolled out, and we all saw a real person (Sammy) standing up there on stage playing guitar next to Ed, (even egads, trading licks!), it was a little strange, even off-putting to some. I've got to admit that I'm one of those people. Now I'm no Sammy hater, and 5150 is a very special album for me. I'm jut saying that was my perception at the time, as well as that of many others.

Part of the justification EVH gave at the time for Sammy playing guitar was that it freed him up to explore his new passion onstage, which was playing the keyboard. I could buy that. It was a convincing argument, and the man had a right to explore new musical frontiers. Plus Ed was doing some really cool shit with the synth.

Several years after that I remember hearing that Van Halen now had Alan Fitzgerald lurking offstage and inside the dark confines of a tent playing keyboard. WTF? That did not sit well with me. So much for the Ed being freed up to play keyboard argument/justification.

But this thing about Van Halen using pre-recorded guitar tracks piped in from offstage, that's just devastating to me. Hiding a guy in the wings and letting them at least play live (if unseen), in real time, apparently wasn't even good enough for whatever it was VH thought they were trying to achieve. And what was that anyways, perfection?, to "make it sound just like the record?", or maybe it was the case of just needing a crutch at that point.

I know from what you're saying this live use of pre-recorded guitar thing started a long time ago with VH, and I no doubt must appear like a guy who has been under a rock for only hearing about it now . . . but damn . . . I'm just bummed out by that news.

I have to call BS on VH using pre-recorded tracks without much stronger evidence. They never did it to help out DLR in recent years, and they didn’t even do any over dubs or edits on the horrible live in Japan recordings.

I can certainly think of some live acts I've seen that would've sounded better if they did were using recording tracks. I do feel it takes away from the "live performance" aspect of the music. It's one thing if you've got a crazy dance routine as a pop act (e.g., Justin Timberlate or a K-Pop band) and another thing if you're mostly known for just the music itself. I do think there's got to be some gray area though. What if you're vocal sound is dependent on layering like Les Paul & Mary Ford in How High The Moon?



Maybe honesty is the best policy in this regard? If your audience feels like prerecording some or all of the performance would negate their enjoyment in some way, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

Chocol8 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:38 am I have to call BS on VH using pre-recorded tracks without much stronger evidence. They never did it to help out DLR in recent years, and they didn’t even do any over dubs or edits on the horrible live in Japan recordings.

I could swear that there was a video on YouTube of Wolfie lifting his hands in the air while on stage and the bass keeps on playing. I can't seem to find it now.

Like the rest I think it's BS.. I joined my first band at 15 in 1971 knowing I was on my way to being a Rock Star I started practicing harder than I ever had by the time I was out of high school I got a short lived touring gig with a regional band and continued to gig with bands until 2014 with just a little time here and there I was without a band, In all those years I/we never did anything but play live and yes there were train wrecks on stage occasionally but we always laughed it off and kept playing. When record companies get involved the artist/band become a product and they are going to do everything possible to make that product the most appealing to their audience so here goes all the fake music and voices and the performers just become a visual attraction. I don't like it but can kind of understand why with the big signed acts but with a group like you are talking about TMC it's absolutely stupid. If they spent as much time and effort on their playing/singing they wouldn't need that crap. Just my 2 cents but to me they are simply wanna be posers and I wouldn't give them the time of day let alone play music with them. I'm not a fan of Karaoke and to me this is pretty much the same thing.

The only prerecorded tracks I have heard on VH shows was the opening of Tattoo. It didn't help much.

OK, and the keyboards on Balance tour.

But seriously, if VH was going to use prerecorded stuff to cover for Ed, wouldn't they have done it on the Sammy reunion tour with Meth Head Ed? Apparently they didn't, and it got bad.

And now, an important message from the sponsor of this thread:

Rollin Hand wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:08 pm But seriously, if VH was going to use prerecorded stuff to cover for Ed, wouldn't they have done it on the Sammy reunion tour with Meth Head Ed? Apparently they didn't, and it got bad.

Another good example! If VH is using prerecorded cover material, they are epically bad at it!

I was just looking at the "musicians" category of my local craigslist and came across this listing. I'm not criticizing whoever it is that posted it. I'm just pointing it out as a revealing observation on what skills a professional touring drummer apparently needs at this time. Maybe it's indicative of the way it generally is right now, maybe it isn't, I don't know. It is very relevant to this thread however.

Here's the listing:

https://boone.craigslist.org/muc/d/boon ... 98932.html


Note that the drummer does not say any of the things I'd expect a drummer to say in his short resume, like for instance:

"I prefer Ludwig drums, I use a 14X26" kick, I like a 17 "Paiste crash, I can read charts, my influences include Buddy Rich, Bonhan, etc."

You guys know what I'm talking about, all that drummer geek talk we guitar plays usually have to endure.

Instead, he actually says this:

"Ample experience programming and running live backing tracks, click tracks, cues, samples, triggers, multi-pads, etc.

Proficient in Ableton Live and Logic Pro X."

Only as an afterthought, almost as a footnote, does he then add, "All gear is industry standard."

Am I hiring a drummer or an IT Tech?

The gear that is industry standard isn’t the drum kit, it’s the electronic stuff. The actual drumming is just for show.

That said, 1) he is desperate for a job and I am sure will play whatever brand or size kick you want. Smart not to mention anything that might exclude him. 2) look at the kind of music he plays. Much of it doesn’t have real drums on the recordings, so he better be an It programmer.

Yeah, the state of popular music truly sucks right now. One would hope the pendulum will swing back, but after 35 years of musician free hip hop crap, people still want more.

jhull54 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:34 am It's funny how times change. I remember back in the late 70's, (and to this day) Queen used the recorded operatic bit of Bohemian Rhapsody and left the stage as it played, returning for the rock finale. They were absolutely castigated for doing that. Now it's not even talked about, and actually expected.

I saw them in the 70’s and they did that exact same thing. Set the instruments down and walked off the stage. I saw a bar band in Huntington Beach do it perfect, with minimal effects, so there’s just no excuse to me that justifies it. That, and their doing Killer Queen as only a 30 sec. snippet in a medley, lowered what I think of them forever.

Muy no gusta


...I really miss when I knew a little bit of another language.

Anyway, I guess there's a time and a place and a way to do it that's absolutely okay and sounds great, but generally, when I pay to see a band perform, I'm paying to see that band specifically actually perform their songs.
I'm not a big fan of much "electronic music" either. Kinda the same reason I don't pay to see bands I know don't fully play/perform/write their music.

Rick Beato just did a video on why older people hate modern pop. The click track and lack of tempo variations.

Here is another great (shorter) video comparing quntized perfect beat to one of the greatest real deal drummers.

I align with most of the responses above.

I left the last band I was in because the drummer and singer wanted to rely on prerecorded music exclusively (following the departure of the bass player).

I much prefer the organic feel of humans interacting on stage, whether I’m performing or watching/listening.