Love this—came across it while googling an acquaintance, Tony Cesarano from Albuquerque, a fine guitarist (see his contribution). One of my favorites is the 4th one down … .
Also the guy who says "Just about every gig I do, I play for free … What you are paying me for is to lug a drumset across town and set it up, to show up on time, to have all the material learned, to live out of a suitcase on the road for months and months, to live in a confined cabin on a cruise ship, etc.”
What’s your take?
"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it."
peskypesky wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:16 pm
great stuff
Yeah, he writes really nice stuff—he sent me some charts a couple of years ago, interesting, odd section lengths and so on, the way I like to write. (32-bar AABA can be so last year in the wrong hands )
I met him in Santa Fe around 2009 and we kept up correspondence for quite a while.
Incidentally, almost all the tracks are first takes, which is pretty impressive. My only quibble is that I think the cymbals are a little too hot in the mix, but there you go …
He was playing a Gibson Wes Montgomery.
"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it."
I agree with most people who answered: never work for free. Once you do, you're forever "that guy who works for free." I don't post my music here, but there are places I do use/post it for promo or review. I often get a lot of compliments on various aspects, and with this comes "offers." Some want "beatz," some want mastering, some want my instruction or how-to tips. All want it for free. I used to accommodate some of these people. I gained experience, and in some cases "exposure," but never once did I benefit monetarily - not even later on down the line. All it ever earned for me were opportunities to work again... with the expectation that I would again provide services for free.
I didn't have to deal with this when I was in my old band, but I listened in on the calls. Our guitarist handled such things, and he'd get a kick out of beating people up during negotiations. He knew his product, and he knew our draw capability. He routinely hung up on requests to play for free.
"Hey, that guy's never gonna try book us again, ya know..."
"So, what? He wasn't going to pay us anyway, and we'd be committed to that gig. What do we lose by saying no to 'free'?"
He was right. Our rep grew, and even though we didn't rake it in those first few years - I never lost money doing it - always gained economically, even if it was pocket change after expenses. This was during a different time, of course - it seems eons ago now. Still, even now... I wouldn't work for free.
I would love so much to join a band again, and this is always a sticking point. I got tired of auditioning, having them love my work, then not getting the gig because I'm not willing to lose money on the proposition. So, this is all up front when setting up any audition. It often kills the chances I get looked at. No musician should be willing to work for free, it undermines all others and devalues music on the whole.
Any creative endeavor seems to not be valued for what it is these days.
I get four or five requests every week for custom/commissioned guitars/bodies. I don't normally accept this work, the fact is stated right out on my page (which people never read). Sometimes tho, an idea intrigues me and I'll offer a bid for the work. Inevitably, there follows a fight over the cost. They never want to pay what I'll ask, even though I'm charging less than 2/3 the price of the average builder's commission. I always state: "X" is the non-refundable deposit (covers cost of materials and assures I'll get something for the effort), "X" is due within two weeks of completion. It's usually half up front, half to deliver. I also include: "Respectfully, this is non-negotiable."
My work on Reverb has a price tag on the page right next to it. I routinely ask and recieve a set amount for each item. I can't figure out why people would assume I'd drop everything and produce a completely custom guitar for anything less than what I ask for the non-custom regular bodies.
From a message exchange two days ago after discussing a build and being provided a quote:
"What!?!? Why so much? I can go to Warmoth and buy a body and do it myself!!!"
"You approached me for my services because you liked the work I posted for sale and after reading the feedback from other customers I've had dealings with. Obviously there was something that appealed to you. You are welcome to commission this body from me, purchase a body already for sale, or you may indeed go to Warmoth. If you wish to have a guitar body handmade and custom painted to your specifications, I am rather inexpensive compared to most other builders (you're free to research this, of course). If you're OK with a CNC machined body with a limited finish range, ask Warmoth. I wouldn't discourage this, in fact. I've never seen a complaint about their work. I'm sorry we can't come to terms, but this is my fee for the work. Please let me know if there's anything I can help with in the future."
I understand trying to work a deal, I'm a tightwad myself and try to keep every penny I can. But trying to lowball a creative endeavor is beyond my understanding. If you want something off an assembly line - sure, work that deal. But custom made, bespoke work commands a premium - no matter the discipline. I'm not really very good at most things, but what I'm good at - I am really good at. I may sometimes choose to give it freely (I did a couple guitar makin' how to's at the old forum as a way of trying to give back to this community). But, if you ask for my services - I'm charging you for it. You're free to decide if it's worth it, but going for a low bidder usually doesn't end in satisfaction.
It depends on what you want out of music. Personally, I never do free work except for helping friends/acquaintances with technical issues. When they've tried, I've made a habit of asking directors, producers, owners what work they do for free. But I'm much more of a composer than musician, so if I give away work, it's not an hour or two, it is days. A lot of friends play out free because it's what they live for, and I think that's cool too. I'm older now, and nobody asks me to work free anymore - I wonder whether that's because of my age or reputation.
To answer my own question—around here, these days, it seems the options are: 1. Play for free; 2. Play for the door and/or tip jar and maybe a bottle of wine; 3. Stay home and practice …
I make an exception for jam sessions with a house band where each guest player is limited to three tunes or so, but if I'm in the house band I expect to get paid, no matter how poorly.
I remember years ago showing up for a well-paying but musically worthless gig on one of my very early forays as a fledgling bass player. To my horror, the piano player was Gary Peacock, who I knew quite well. Seeing the look on my face, he said words to the effect of "Hey, don't worry, I can't play piano!"
Meeting up later and laughing about the situation, he laid out his parameters for taking a gig. "Three things—Good money, good music, good musicians—two out of three gets the gig …"
Nowadays it seems the last two are still in good supply, but the $$$?
There's an art organization on the island where I live that has an annual summer studio tour, and every year is the same BS—out comes the the poster "Inviting musicians to give the gift of music to support the arts …" or similar weasel words. I have been approached about this on occasion, and always told them to get lost.
I could go on …
"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it."
I took the play for free paid for showing up on time setting up being prepared etc as not working for free. I saw it as I enjoy playing jazz for an audience so much I can't take money for that, but since I'm pro who puts a lot of work into being ready and on time you'll pay a professional wages to get me there.
Many moons ago I was an independent IT consultant, back in the early days of LAN technology. I got a couple of jobs from recommendation of an accountant friend and from there many small businesses wanted proposals for setting up a network. I found out the game early ..if you give them too detailed a proposal, they simply take your documents and hire someone cheap to implement it. If you keep it too vague they complain and tell you they need very detailed specs and diagrams so they can take it to management for approval. (BS). I got word of a few of them taking my plans and doing it in house. But later when the thing stopped working during their monthly accounting closings, they called in a panic asking for support..too bad I explained I could not support somebody else's screwups due to liability concerns.. Ha ha .
Never work for free. Even if you don't need the cash.. It's the principle.. You'll do a better job and they'll respect you more.
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